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Apple decided not to roll out Siri in EU after denied request for exemption

reuters.com

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Re: Apple decided not to roll out Siri in EU after denied request for exemption

#321

Post by jen20 »

aprentic wrote: post #305
eykanal wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Google eng mgr here. I've worked on a few projects related to compliance with various government policies. This isn't "assign a two-pizza team to it, will be done in a quarter"; these types of compliance efforts can mean completely redoing multiple core systems to handle privacy, wipeout, audit, reporting, per-location policies, etc etc. These efforts can involve hundreds to thousands of people for multiple years. Su…

You're essentially saying that privacy violations are baked into the cores of these systems.

DMA is not about privacy.

Re: Apple decided not to roll out Siri in EU after denied request for exemption

#322

Post by madeofpalk »

gmueckl wrote: post #35
afavour wrote: post #2

Apple said "hey, can we not comply with the law", the EU said no, so it didn't launch. Seems pretty straightforward to me. I can see why Apple might want to request an 18 month exemption, there's clearly extra work required to comply with EU regulations. But on the other hand it also feels like a straightforward play for consumer sympathy: let them get used to using it every day for 18 months, then pressure the EU to…

Throwing infinite money at engineering problems doesn't move deadlines arbitrarily. But Apple's position here is actually really wild: Apple claims to protect user privacy all the time. But they can't offer a product in a major jurisdiction that has actually meaningful privacy laws? Didn't they consider that while designing the product? This is quite the contradiction.

No, this isn't the claim.

EU wants Apple to open 'Siri AI', with access to a personal context, open to other model/AI providers.

Apple says "We can't do this in a privacy preserving way".

You can definitely question what their true motivations are, but it seems pretty plausible that there is a moral case for this system to not be opened up to other providers who may do a worse job at privacy than Apple (especially when you are Apple and you trust yourself).

I think there is a place in these sorts of ecosystems for privileged players. If you buy an iPhone you implicitly must trust Apple to some degree.

Re: Apple decided not to roll out Siri in EU after denied request for exemption

#323

Post by happyopossum »

gmueckl wrote: post #35
afavour wrote: post #2

Apple said "hey, can we not comply with the law", the EU said no, so it didn't launch. Seems pretty straightforward to me. I can see why Apple might want to request an 18 month exemption, there's clearly extra work required to comply with EU regulations. But on the other hand it also feels like a straightforward play for consumer sympathy: let them get used to using it every day for 18 months, then pressure the EU to…

Throwing infinite money at engineering problems doesn't move deadlines arbitrarily. But Apple's position here is actually really wild: Apple claims to protect user privacy all the time. But they can't offer a product in a major jurisdiction that has actually meaningful privacy laws? Didn't they consider that while designing the product? This is quite the contradiction.

> Apple claims to protect user privacy all the time. But they can't offer a product in a major jurisdiction that has actually meaningful privacy laws?

The DMA and the GDPR are laws that at their core make each other more difficult. the stated outcome of the DMA - allowing any vendor/user full access to your device - is not easily supported when solving for privacy.

Re: Apple decided not to roll out Siri in EU after denied request for exemption

#324

Post by alt227 »

MBCook wrote: post #197
afavour wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To me that reads as an even greater reason not to delay it. If you knew the restrictions day one you’d be able to engineer the system to accommodate them. Waiting until post launch now means a massive amount of re-engineering. I know it’s not quite as simple as that but I do think it shows Apple are more interested in blaming the EU than reducing the potential issues ahead of time.

Don’t forget they’re already basically two years behind when they originally promised this stuff.

So whats the issue delaying a few more months for a worldwide release?

The only reason for this is to take a swipe at the EU and try to push some bad opinion on to them from their customers.

Re: Apple decided not to roll out Siri in EU after denied request for exemption

#325

Post by alt227 »

microtonal wrote: post #266
JumpCrisscross wrote: post #219

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The point is complying with the DMA from the outset could mean having to launch a year later everywhere. Skipping the EU makes sense in a fast-moving market (if you’re designated as a gatekeeper).

They have already launched two years late. Remember when we all had to buy an iPhone 16 to get Apple Intelligence? Besides that, Google has shipped many (not all) similar features to Pixels in the EU and have been for years.

DMA has been a thing for 4 years.

Whatever Apple is cooking and however long its taken them, the DMA is not a surprise and they could well have been taking it into account from the very beginning.

Re: Apple decided not to roll out Siri in EU after denied request for exemption

#326

Post by nonethewiser »

jplrssn wrote: post #15

> EU regulators on Tuesday slammed Apple This reads more like a tabloid headline than the first sentence of a Reuters article.

I agree it’s a bit sensationalist. Here’s the EU Commission spokesperson’s criticism:

>“The decision not to roll out Siri AI in the EU is Apple’s and Apple’s only,” spokesperson Thomas Regnier told reporters in Brussels, saying there was nothing in the Digital Markets Act to stop the company from introducing new products in the EU.

>“Apple was simply unable to develop interoperability solutions that meet essential EU privacy and security standards,” Regnier said.

Obviously he's going to champion the EU's position, but his framing is internally inconsistent.

1. he claims the DMA doesn’t prevent Apple from launching products in the EU

2. the DMA sets certain requirements which determines whether features can ship in the EU

It's fair to say “the DMA doesn’t ban Siri AI,” but that's not the real issue. The regulation sets conditions, and Apple is arguing those conditions make rollout infeasible. The Commission claims its a compliance problem, not a regulatory block, but the reality is less binary. At a certain point the regulation is self-defeating. What is that point? This is the discussion that the EU lawmakers cannot acknowledge.

Re: Apple decided not to roll out Siri in EU after denied request for exemption

#327

Post by happyopossum »

schubidubiduba wrote: post #248
macintux wrote: post #217

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A huge part of Apple’s marketing, whether you believe them or not, is that they try to protect your privacy. The smartphone is probably the most sensitive device most people own. It knows your location always. It has your banking apps. Your password manager. Your instant messages, and social media chats, it knows whether you’re walking, or driving, or talking on the phone, and to whom. Once Apple allows any other ven…

All of that happens only if the user chooses to do it though. Anybody is free to stay in the caged Apple garden. The EU just wants them to leave the door unlocked.

A door with a lock is different from a wall with no door. Same argument that gets made with government-keyed or government-breakable encryption schemes: it's better for everyone to not have the backdoor at all.

Re: Apple decided not to roll out Siri in EU after denied request for exemption

#328

Post by microtonal »

speedgoose wrote: post #257

I find it interesting that Apple prefers to fall behind in Europe rather than opening their platform a tiny bit. It gives us European some opportunities. I have a side project at work that was heavily threatened by Siri’s new features. Now I feel more relaxed as Siri isn’t coming there anytime soon. But overall I doubt we will replace Apple.

Who knows? There has been a lot more attention to alternatives as of recently and there is more pushback against lock-in using remote attestation, Google/Apple Pay, etc.

It seems things start to get rolling in a way that they haven't since the start of the Google/Apple duopoly.

Re: Apple decided not to roll out Siri in EU after denied request for exemption

#329

Post by andix »

jldugger wrote: post #318
andix wrote: post #253

It's totally fine that Apple doesn't release this feature for EU customers. If they think they can still sell enough phones it's also fine I guess. What's not fine, is to blame the EU for the missing feature. It's damaging their brand and damaging their reputation. Just think about if Porsche would make a press release and calling the US tariffs "un-American". Wouldn't be perceived well either.

By who? The only US people who seem to like the tarrifs are the ones front running trades on their announcement.

Such political statements never damage the brand for every citizen, but for some.

Tesla is a good example. Elon Musk became political and anti-EU, which resulted in an irreparable damage of the Tesla brand in Europe. Not for everyone, but a big group of people would never again consider buying a Tesla. As a result Tesla lost market share in Europe.

Apple seems to be on the same path now.

Re: Apple decided not to roll out Siri in EU after denied request for exemption

#330

Post by baq »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #93
afavour wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To me that reads as an even greater reason not to delay it. If you knew the restrictions day one you’d be able to engineer the system to accommodate them. Waiting until post launch now means a massive amount of re-engineering. I know it’s not quite as simple as that but I do think it shows Apple are more interested in blaming the EU than reducing the potential issues ahead of time.

> If you knew the restrictions day one you’d be able to engineer the system to accommodate them This slows down deploying the system globally. Particularly if the target is moving, it may make sense to build lightly so one can pivot, and then build in the compliance stuff after you know you have a winning configuration. The EU has its laws. Apple has its strategy. The only thing I fault anyone on is the public bicker…

Then don’t deploy it for Pete’s sake if you can’t guarantee basic privacy.
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