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Obama opposes House passage of H.R. 6429

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Re: Obama opposes House passage of H.R. 6429

#31

Post by wtvanhest »

ajays wrote: post #14

On the other hand: does the glut of tech workers drive down wages? If you strictly look at it from a supply/demand angle, one could argue that if these companies wanted more techies, they could just pay more. Being able to increase supply at will (i.e. import techies) will naturally drive down prices (i.e. wages). The same argument is made about illegal immigration: these immigrants fill low-end jobs that don't pay w…

I can't imagine why US engineers would support a bill like this from a benefit analysis perspective. It should be obvious that if you add engineers, prices will go down. I can completely understand supporting it for moral reasons however.

Re: Obama opposes House passage of H.R. 6429

#32

Post by nhashem »

ajays wrote: post #14

On the other hand: does the glut of tech workers drive down wages? If you strictly look at it from a supply/demand angle, one could argue that if these companies wanted more techies, they could just pay more. Being able to increase supply at will (i.e. import techies) will naturally drive down prices (i.e. wages). The same argument is made about illegal immigration: these immigrants fill low-end jobs that don't pay w…

You raise an interesting concept, but as US-born software engineer, this is why I'm not too concerned:

- Unlike low-skill manufacturing jobs, most technology jobs are not commodity work. To put it another way: if the US gave out visas to 55,000 people who got an acting degree, I doubt Brad Pitt would have to take a paycut on his next movie.

- A lot of the companies sponsoring this bill are software companies, but STEM isn't just software engineering. The applicants here are in a wide variety of fields. How many of them will specifically get a computer science degree with the explicit goal of getting a job at Google? Some, sure, but not all 55,000. They'll go into other fields and other industries and I don't think the total volume of talent in each particular STEM industry will be enough to significantly impact wages.

- Whatever these people were going to do in the US in terms of entrepreneurship, if they can't get a visa they'll just go back to their home country and do it there. So it's just as possible they'd start their own companies and need to hire software engineers, which would actually have upward pressure on wages.

Re: Obama opposes House passage of H.R. 6429

#33

Post by ekm2 »

hack_edu wrote: post #10
dmk23 wrote: post #6

I hope all the Obama supporters here still feel good about helping re-elect the man. Rest assured he is still going to support amnesty for unskilled illegals who are more likely to vote Democrat for years to come. EDIT: It is pretty funny how the downvoters fail to acknowledge the basic facts about the politics of the issue and instead fall for the Administration's excuses and rush to condemn "conspiracy theories". T…

Chill out. This has nothing to do with skilled/unskilled, illegal/legal. Its about reform for all of immigration policy, not just those who can already make a living for themselves anywhere. Plus, and I hate to say it, but there's very clearly much greater need (not demand, need) for the sorts of jobs 'unskilled illegals' end up doing than the high-skill (read: class) jobs that this piece of legislation addresses. An…

Right,the american economy is in danger of tanking if the country does not hire more janitors.Science and Engineering phds can look after themselves elsewhere,Canada maybe?

Re: Obama opposes House passage of H.R. 6429

#34

Post by onetwothreefour »

temphn wrote: post #13

What is the argument for 55000 random visas at a time when the US economy is doing very poorly? Is this a game? US citizenship clearly has market value. Billions of dollars could be raised by turning these into entrepreneur visas or charging per visa (it's not like the US doesn't already do this, but the price is way too low). If we're taxing current citizens, and we have 50% exit taxes, why not entry taxes? When dem…

Thanks for weighing in with your uninformed opinion on something while also invoking the age old "when the US economy is doing very poorly" straw man which has nothing to do with the DV lottery.

Those DV lottery winners pay US taxes while having no citizenship rights, so you have literally no idea what you're talking about.

Re: Obama opposes House passage of H.R. 6429

#35

Post by philwelch »

mynameishere wrote: post #26
nhashem wrote: post #7

From the administration's response: "As a part of immigration reform, the Administration strongly supports legislation to attract and retain foreign students who graduate with advanced STEM degrees, to establish a start-up visa for foreign-born entrepreneurs to start businesses and create jobs, and to reform the employment-based immigration system to better meet the needs of the U.S. economy. However, the Administrat…

without "cannibalizing" the diversity visas. Well, the diversity visas were the most brutal possible attack on sanity ever passed by a legislature. "Oh, you came from XYZ wretched backwater, here's your VISA...on the basis of your wretchedness." Sad, sad, sad, to live in such dismal times.

Isn't that a sensible humanitarian policy?

Re: Obama opposes House passage of H.R. 6429

#36

Post by seldo »

GuiA wrote: post #21
seldo wrote: post #16

As a recent immigrant myself -- I got my green card last week, after a 5-year application process, and I'm one of the lucky ones -- I'm a huge fan of immigration reform. However, this is not the bill to do it. The 55,000 diversity visas are an essential part of how immigration should work: there should be more of them, not less. While we need more STEM educated immigrants, it should not be at the expense of other vis…

I'm unfamiliar with diversity visas- who are they for, and what "good" are they supposed to provide?

They are Visas available to anybody, for any reason, from any country. They are good because immigration is good.

But let me explain a bit further.

Most American visas are related to a specific job, or a family connection, or education. You can't just turn up and stay -- you have to have a reason, and a ton of documentation. But that's not how immigration has, historically, worked: the original American colonists and those that followed them through the 1700s and 1800s didn't arrive knowing where they'd live and what job they'd have. They arrived hoping to make a better life for their children, with no clear plan of how. That's what these visas are for.

The situation is complicated slightly further because these are restricted to low-immigration-rate countries. Basically, there are a billion Indians and more than a billion Chinese: even a very small percentage of them applying for a visa lottery would mean that 99% of visas went to people from those countries. Therefore, to get immigrants from a broader range of countries, visas for people from countries that send a lot of applications every year are handled separately, under their own quotas. The remaining countries are all lumped together and given a group quota: these are the "diversity" visas.

If you would like a more fundamental answer to why immigration is good, I'm happy to oblige, just ask :-)

Re: Obama opposes House passage of H.R. 6429

#37

Post by seldo »

ekm2 wrote: post #33
hack_edu wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Chill out. This has nothing to do with skilled/unskilled, illegal/legal. Its about reform for all of immigration policy, not just those who can already make a living for themselves anywhere. Plus, and I hate to say it, but there's very clearly much greater need (not demand, need) for the sorts of jobs 'unskilled illegals' end up doing than the high-skill (read: class) jobs that this piece of legislation addresses. An…

Right,the american economy is in danger of tanking if the country does not hire more janitors.Science and Engineering phds can look after themselves elsewhere,Canada maybe?

If you kicked out all of the undocumented workers currently working in the US tomorrow, I can absolutely guarantee you that the American economy would immediately collapse.

You need more of both.

Re: Obama opposes House passage of H.R. 6429

#38

Post by onetwothreefour »

rndmize wrote: post #19
nhashem wrote: post #7

From the administration's response: "As a part of immigration reform, the Administration strongly supports legislation to attract and retain foreign students who graduate with advanced STEM degrees, to establish a start-up visa for foreign-born entrepreneurs to start businesses and create jobs, and to reform the employment-based immigration system to better meet the needs of the U.S. economy. However, the Administrat…

If this is the case, the title of the article strikes me as poorly chosen.

The title of the article strikes me as one written by a Republican. This is a terrible bill, that's why it's not being signed.

Re: Obama opposes House passage of H.R. 6429

#39

Post by onetwothreefour »

sharkweek wrote: post #12
[deleted] wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[deleted]

No, I'm saying the bill needs to be rewritten to not cannibalize the diversity visas. We need both high skill and low skill labor in massive quantities; and as a country, we're dancing around a ridiculously broken immigration system.

The assumption that the DV lottery only brings in low skill labor is both insulting and wrong.

Re: Obama opposes House passage of H.R. 6429

#40

Post by scarmig »

mynameishere wrote: post #26
nhashem wrote: post #7

From the administration's response: "As a part of immigration reform, the Administration strongly supports legislation to attract and retain foreign students who graduate with advanced STEM degrees, to establish a start-up visa for foreign-born entrepreneurs to start businesses and create jobs, and to reform the employment-based immigration system to better meet the needs of the U.S. economy. However, the Administrat…

without "cannibalizing" the diversity visas. Well, the diversity visas were the most brutal possible attack on sanity ever passed by a legislature. "Oh, you came from XYZ wretched backwater, here's your VISA...on the basis of your wretchedness." Sad, sad, sad, to live in such dismal times.

It is, of course, totally insane to let people voluntarily choose to work here and make voluntary economic transactions with other adults who voluntarily want to pay them money to provide goods and services for Americans to voluntarily purchase.
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