Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Federal judge blocks H1B visa $100K fee

alaskasnewssource.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

231–240 of 375 posts

Re: Federal judge blocks H1B visa $100K fee

#231

Post by dpark »

TimorousBestie wrote: post #219
dpark wrote: post #217

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Fees have to be justified Do they? Honest question. Is there a law that says fees must be in some sense justified? > Calling something a fee doesn't make it a fee if, in substance, it operates like a tax. This seems like a nonsense response to GP. They gave a definition of fee vs tax that is based on a meaningful distinction and not what it happens to be called.

> Do they? Honest question. Is there a law that says fees must be in some sense justified? Read the opinion, it isn’t very long. This facet in particular is discussed in detail there. > They gave a definition of fee vs tax that is based on a meaningful distinction and not what it happens to be called. GP sounds likes he’s trying out for the inevitable appeal, the tax/fee distinctions argued in the case came from diff…

From what I can tell with a quick reading, it is not. The opinion states that the fee is a tax and not a penalty and based on that ruling then further rules that the tax oversteps Congress’s delegated authority.

The whole penalty thing seems weird because obviously it’s not a penalty, so I don’t know if the president’s lawyers argued a dumb point and lost or if I’m missing some legal nuance here.

Regardless, the opinion is based on the ruling that the fee amounts to a tax, not that fees must be justified.

Re: Federal judge blocks H1B visa $100K fee

#232

Post by TimorousBestie »

dpark wrote: post #231
TimorousBestie wrote: post #219

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Do they? Honest question. Is there a law that says fees must be in some sense justified? Read the opinion, it isn’t very long. This facet in particular is discussed in detail there. > They gave a definition of fee vs tax that is based on a meaningful distinction and not what it happens to be called. GP sounds likes he’s trying out for the inevitable appeal, the tax/fee distinctions argued in the case came from diff…

From what I can tell with a quick reading, it is not. The opinion states that the fee is a tax and not a penalty and based on that ruling then further rules that the tax oversteps Congress’s delegated authority. The whole penalty thing seems weird because obviously it’s not a penalty, so I don’t know if the president’s lawyers argued a dumb point and lost or if I’m missing some legal nuance here. Regardless, the opin…

Page 18 and ff.

https://storage.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.mad.293...

> I don’t know if the president’s lawyers argued a dumb point and lost

They argued several dumb points, you’ll have to narrow it down.

Re: Federal judge blocks H1B visa $100K fee

#233

Post by dani__german »

esalman wrote: post #123
randyrand wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are an excess of teachers in the USA already. It’s a big reason they aren’t paid that well. No good reason to import them except to pay them even less .

I hear this argument all the time. There's an excess of this, there's an excess of that. Seems it only comes from people who are not directly involved in hiring of such roles. We hired for an analyst role few months ago in the bay area and there was no qualified American applicants. My wife is in pavement consultancy and they hardly ever find qualified Americans for pavement design jobs.

"We were unable to attract highly experienced data analysts, and we REFUSE to ever train anyone for any role, so we should be allowed to use scab labor to undercut American wages"

Re: Federal judge blocks H1B visa $100K fee

#234

Post by QGQBGdeZREunxLe »

rayiner wrote: post #225
QGQBGdeZREunxLe wrote: post #208

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I disagree. Fees have to be justified and USCIS is not spending $100,000 to process a H1B applicant. They are raising revenue. Which is taxation. Calling something a fee doesn't make it a fee if, in substance, it operates like a tax.

Fees don’t have to be limited to the cost of the specific transaction. Lots of agencies, not to mention the courts themselves, charge fees that go towards the operation of the agency and don’t just defray the specific costs of a single transaction. In the NCTA case cited above, the Supreme Court upheld a law that authorized the FCC to impose “fees” on cable licensees that took into account the value of the license to…

Sure but USCIS is already funded by fees.

https://www.uscis.gov/about-us/budget-planning-and-performan...

Re: Federal judge blocks H1B visa $100K fee

#235

Post by dani__german »

s1artibartfast wrote: post #150
throwaway85825 wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's as many teachers in Alaska as they're willing to pay for.

Yes, there is supply and demand. However, that doesnt mean a government cant restrict supply.

It precisely and explicitly demands that the government restrict supply of foreign labor, as that increases the fair market value of American wage earners. It increases the opportunities for young Americans to trade their labor for a start in life, to support their families, and to make our nation stronger. Importing foreign labor makes it more difficult to justify hiring Americans, and undermines the nation's long term success for short term gains. It is effectively an Anti-investment.

Re: Federal judge blocks H1B visa $100K fee

#236

Post by jsemrau »

esalman wrote: post #123
randyrand wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are an excess of teachers in the USA already. It’s a big reason they aren’t paid that well. No good reason to import them except to pay them even less .

I hear this argument all the time. There's an excess of this, there's an excess of that. Seems it only comes from people who are not directly involved in hiring of such roles. We hired for an analyst role few months ago in the bay area and there was no qualified American applicants. My wife is in pavement consultancy and they hardly ever find qualified Americans for pavement design jobs.

> there was no qualified American applicants

I have been hiring for 20 years and find this increasingly impossible to believe. Please expand why that would be the case.

Re: Federal judge blocks H1B visa $100K fee

#237

Post by AngryData »

SXX wrote: post #164
jameson wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm sure the supply will go up if extra $$$ is paid.

Except you'll have to spend way more than $100,000 to incentify US citizen from a city to move there and stay. And they not gonna have the same near slave H1B conditions where changing their job is just impossible.. H1B workers in IT even have an option to find a new visa sponsor, but nobody needs foreign teacher with H1B in California or Texas or basically anywhere else.

$100K would certainly garner tons of prospects. Rural schools around me only pay $30K

Re: Federal judge blocks H1B visa $100K fee

#238

Post by Grombobulous »

fc417fc802 wrote: post #202
esalman wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I hear this argument all the time. There's an excess of this, there's an excess of that. Seems it only comes from people who are not directly involved in hiring of such roles. We hired for an analyst role few months ago in the bay area and there was no qualified American applicants. My wife is in pavement consultancy and they hardly ever find qualified Americans for pavement design jobs.

> there was no qualified American applicants. But are there qualified Americans who could easily switch to that job for one reason or another? Is the issue a lack of qualified professionals or is it a lack of interest by qualified professionals in the listed position? It's very easy to receive no applications from qualified professionals that do in fact exist by simply not offering to pay them enough (among many othe…

One of the problems is that geography and demographic movement trends within that geography is a very real thing.

Let’s say a rural town has lost population in the last 20 years, and most of the population that left is educated.

Now they need a teacher, which requires a bachelors or even masters degree.

The rural town’s unemployment rate is 10% but there are no qualified teachers who are unemployed.

So now we want to move someone in from a nearby urban center that has a big market of educated people. But the unemployment rate in that big urban area is 3%, and the area is wealthier with a higher salary rate for jobs across the income spectrum.

Let’s say my local teacher salary is $50,000, the big city teacher salary is $90,000, and the big city high school diploma career salary is $50,000.

I have to find someone who is a qualified teacher who isn’t already a teacher and isn’t already working someone where else that’s still paying better than my local area. Plus, that person has family, friends, and prefers the big city with all its amenities and infrastructure. I can tell you right now that you would have to pay me far above market rate to get me to move because I’m already employed and happy.

In contrast, someone in a foreign country is potentially getting a huge upgrade to move to the US or another developed wealthy country and is way more motivated to make that leap.

I imagine these programs exist because the cost benefit just makes sense. Not only do you solve the imbalance faster, easier, cheaper, but now the wider country has gained educated population which is generally an economic benefit.

Certainly there are flaws in the system that need to be fixed. I don’t mean to advocate for it necessarily, just explain why I think it exists.

I would also point out that it’s not necessarily the case that the local labor market is being undercut (see the geographic example I gave above), it’s being expanded, and that includes adding someone who is paying taxes, buying stuff from local businesses, etc, which they do even before they become citizens.

Re: Federal judge blocks H1B visa $100K fee

#239

Post by dani__german »

bijowo1676 wrote: post #139
pseudo0 wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Rural Alaska... Just about the most inhospitable climate in the US, remote, and with a very high cost of living. Teachers can find work just about anywhere, they have little incentive to stay in Alaska. The solution for this is simple - pay them more. There are plenty of recently graduated teachers who would work in Alaska for a few years if it paid off their student loans or let them save up a down payment on a hous…

there is already a program like that, its been running for ages, its called PLSF. Still not enough teachers. https://studentaid.gov/manage-loans/forgiveness-cancellation... People who critique H1B always seem to assume that people actually hiring for labor are much dumber than those bright commenters and haven't exhausted each and every other opportunity to find qualified people. No, you are not being smarter than la…

you said "smarter" in this comment when a more accurate term is "corrupt". Being unable to find a candidate for your given budget requires that you either increase the budgeted salary or decrease the requirements, and train on the job. If you cannot do either of these, your company MUST fail. It is inhumane to demolish the US working class by importing foreign scab labor. Too much labor supply (aka immigration) decreases fair market value for wages. That alone is more than enough justification for ending all immigration of any significant amount.

Handwaving away significant issues as "bigotry, etc" is unhelpful to the discussion. We haven't even covered the impact on housing supply, as illustrated by Canada's insane valuations.

Re: Federal judge blocks H1B visa $100K fee

#240

Post by pastel8739 »

JCTheDenthog wrote: post #113
pastel8739 wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I have several H1B coworkers in the US who barely speak intelligible English, and who barely understand normal conversation let alone anything technical. English fluency is certainly not a requirement for fluency in any technical field. Perhaps you mean that they cannot understand _your_ descriptions of technical topics, though

Seeing as my Russian, Ukrainian, Belarusian, Mexican, French Canadian, and Brazilian coworkers don't seem to have these issues with me I don't think the issue is with my explanations.

Sorry I didn’t mean you specifically, rather you as an English speaker
Post reply on HN