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Ask HN: Why hasn't there been a real competitor to Ticketmaster yet?

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Re: Ask HN: Why hasn't there been a real competitor to Ticketmaster yet?

#61

Post by jasode »

>With all the hate Ticketmaster has gotten [...], I'm surprised Ticketmaster still has a hold of pretty much the entire market. How are they doing this?

This question is a common mystery because you're using the perspective of the fans. E.g. "I hate Tickemaster ridiculous fees because it's price gouging, etc"

But the mystery of Ticketmaster being dominant is solved once you understand it from the perspective of the venues, promoters, and the artists. They are the true customers of Ticketaster. Ticketmaster's various "convenience fees, surcharges, etc" are just creative financial tricks to funnel more money back to venues+promoters+artists but still keep the ticket's face price artificially lower.

The alternative arrangement would be the ticket's face price being much higher to reflect the "true market price" but that means the artists would be the ones perceived as price gouging. Instead, just charge the higher price via convenience fees and let Ticketmaster take the public relations hit. The psychological manipulation of fans is working exactly as designed.

When the fans wish that there was another true competitor to Ticketmaster, what they're saying is they want "a service that charges less money". But that idea conflicts with the venues/promoters/artists that want to charge more money.

Therefore, if you really want to disrupt Ticketmaster, you need to charge even higher fees and more expensive ticket prices so that the greedy venues & artists will get more money from you and thus choose your service over Ticketmaster. I don't think that's the type of competitive disruption fans have in mind.

And the common cited reasons of vertical integration of LiveNation and owning the venues doesn't explain Ticketmaster's advantage. They were already dominant in the 1980s and 1990s before LiveNation acquired venues. Taylor Swift's tour promotor was AEG (not LiveNation) and she played at many stadiums owned by the cities (not owned by LiveNation) and she still chose Ticketmaster to be the selling agent for those locations. One of the reasons is she negotiated 110% of ticket's face price from Ticketmaster. How is extracting that type of money even mathematically even possible?!? The add-on "convenience fees".

Also see: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drip_pricing

Re: Ask HN: Why hasn't there been a real competitor to Ticketmaster yet?

#62

Post by ryukoposting »

From the point of view of the promoters, concerts are a two-sided marketplace. Two-sided marketplaces are notoriously difficult for small players to compete in. You need to attract good acts so people will buy tickets, but to attract the top acts you need to show that you can sell lots of tickets.

Ticketmaster avoided the two-sided market problem until they reached scale. They were just a website where you buy tickets, an IT appliance for promoters.

But then Ticketmaster started buying out promoters, and that short circuited the entire system. Fans can't buy tickets from a different storefront because their favorite artists are only booking performances with ticketmaster-controlled venues. Top talent can't book high-grossing venues that aren't owned by ticketmaster, because Ticketmaster owns the promoters.

Scalpers are a symptom, the disease is consolidation of competitive markets by corporations. This kind of situation is precisely why antitrust law exists.

Re: Ask HN: Why hasn't there been a real competitor to Ticketmaster yet?

#63

Post by DANmode »

mdni007 wrote: post #2

Rant: Trying to buy tickets for the Knicks game at MSG. Is it really impossible to have a ticketing platform that prevents scalpers from marking up prices to an insane amount? $10000+ for a ticket that originally costs around 2k should be illegal. Most of these tickets will go unsold I'm sure.

> Most of these tickets will go unsold I'm sure.

They go to the cousin for $3k two hours before game time, worst case.

Re: Ask HN: Why hasn't there been a real competitor to Ticketmaster yet?

#64

Post by kaikai »

The burning man org has kind of famously used a non-Ticketmaster vendor every year, and it’s almost always a shitshow.

Secretparty.io is another ticket vendor that has a great user experience. Easy transfers, handles large spikes in traffic, etc.

Ticketmaster just has a really solid moat, it’s not that alternatives don’t exist.

Re: Ask HN: Why hasn't there been a real competitor to Ticketmaster yet?

#65

Post by skeptrune »

ryukoposting wrote: post #62

From the point of view of the promoters, concerts are a two-sided marketplace. Two-sided marketplaces are notoriously difficult for small players to compete in. You need to attract good acts so people will buy tickets, but to attract the top acts you need to show that you can sell lots of tickets. Ticketmaster avoided the two-sided market problem until they reached scale. They were just a website where you buy ticket…

Well put

Re: Ask HN: Why hasn't there been a real competitor to Ticketmaster yet?

#66

Post by pixl97 »

jasode wrote: post #61

>With all the hate Ticketmaster has gotten [...], I'm surprised Ticketmaster still has a hold of pretty much the entire market. How are they doing this? This question is a common mystery because you're using the perspective of the fans . E.g. "I hate Tickemaster ridiculous fees because it's price gouging, etc" But the mystery of Ticketmaster being dominant is solved once you understand it from the perspective of the…

>The add-on "convenience fees".

Hence the US needs 'full price up front' laws in the same manner as Australia does. This kind of law shuts this crap down fast.

Re: Ask HN: Why hasn't there been a real competitor to Ticketmaster yet?

#67

Post by loloquwowndueo »

akudha wrote: post #59
alexose wrote: post #48

Ticketmaster obviously sucks, and their monopolistic business practices deserve a close look by regulators. But the core of it is that an unregulated ticket market actually supports these prices. Fans keep showing that they're willing to dig deep and outbid each other to attend these events in person. Ticketmaster realizes this, and have set up a business model that extracts accordingly. I think this is where us Amer…

Looking at the world cup ticket prices gives me a mini heart attack. I don't know who is responsible for such high prices (maybe a combination of FIFA and Ticketmaster?), but goddamn these prices are insane. It is going to price out most people. Either that, or people are going to get into debt, just to see a couple of matches to see their favorite teams play.

Stadiums are still going to be full, that’s why it will keep happening.

People voting with their wallets goes both ways.

Re: Ask HN: Why hasn't there been a real competitor to Ticketmaster yet?

#68

Post by swader999 »

ryukoposting wrote: post #62

From the point of view of the promoters, concerts are a two-sided marketplace. Two-sided marketplaces are notoriously difficult for small players to compete in. You need to attract good acts so people will buy tickets, but to attract the top acts you need to show that you can sell lots of tickets. Ticketmaster avoided the two-sided market problem until they reached scale. They were just a website where you buy ticket…

Fixed the last sentence for you: "This kind of situation is exactly why lobbying exists"

Re: Ask HN: Why hasn't there been a real competitor to Ticketmaster yet?

#69

Post by wolvoleo »

dfxm12 wrote: post #30
reactordev wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Worse, they are all owned by the same company now. It’s all a multi-headed hydra of suck. Live Music has been completely monopolized.

If you like specific acts, sure. Or maybe some cities take independent venues more seriously than others. Growing up, ok I missed out on getting Metallica tickets because I didn't want to support clear channel (or Live Nation, or TM, etc...), but I still was able to see plenty of amazing metal bands in indie venues. Another interesting note: Weird Al is playing three venues within driving distance from me. Only one o…

True, I do see a thriving ecosystem here in Europe for some more fringey types of acts. There's like resident advisor ( https://ra.co ), XCEED ( https://xceed.me ) . Probably because some events don't meet ticketmaster's T&Cs (they can be a bit spicy).

In fact I have not used ticketmaster in the last 2 years, the last time was a big ticket stadium-type thing. Most of the events I attend are doing it through resident advisor and I have about 40 tickets in my history there now. I'm glad the ecosystem hold by ticketmaster is being broken, at least here in Europe.

Though even there you do see some ticketmaster crap popping up like universe.com

Re: Ask HN: Why hasn't there been a real competitor to Ticketmaster yet?

#70

Post by stephenhuey »

ryukoposting wrote: post #62

From the point of view of the promoters, concerts are a two-sided marketplace. Two-sided marketplaces are notoriously difficult for small players to compete in. You need to attract good acts so people will buy tickets, but to attract the top acts you need to show that you can sell lots of tickets. Ticketmaster avoided the two-sided market problem until they reached scale. They were just a website where you buy ticket…

Just tried searching for a long-form article I read in recent years. Wish I could find it, but obviously the facts are not a secret. It explained in depth all the problems with the monopoly, but it also pointed out something very surprising to me. A few artists have spoken out angrily on behalf of their fans. However, the fact is, the artists in general do financially benefit from Ticketmaster's way of doing things. Part of Ticketmaster's business model is taking the heat from the fans who don't like paying all the extra fees so that the anger is not directed at the artists. If an artist wants to set the floor at $150 but knows fans might be upset, they can drop the price 30% and TicketMaster can help them make up the difference in fees, and Ticketmaster has nothing to lose. The artists get to keep their reputation intact instead of appearing greedy to fans.
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