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Switzerland wil have a referendum to cap population at 10M

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Re: Switzerland wil have a referendum to cap population at 10M

#271

Post by ksd482 »

arjie wrote: post #31

This is such a fascinating referendum. The population is at 9.1m, and at 9.5m it appears they'll stall asylum and family reunification, and at 10m they'll execute a Swexit - Switzerland isn't in the EU but it allows freedom of movement to EU nationals. Boy it is interesting to see what's going on in the world right now. There were so many things that I saw growing up as relatively solid but I just happened to grow up…

Change is the only constant.

Nothing lasts forever. Good times will come and go and so would bad times.

I think as humans we are used to small time frames which are proportional to our own lifetime.

But the world: say climate, population, geology etc. moves at a much different cycle, if at all you can call it a cycle since none of the iterations are exactly the same.

So the lesson is this: change is coming. Change will always be coming. Embrace it.

If you like something, you have to struggle to preserve it as much as you can, for as long as you can, but you can never make it permanent.

Re: Switzerland wil have a referendum to cap population at 10M

#272

Post by rayiner »

kgwxd wrote: post #239
kevin_thibedeau wrote: post #197

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That avoids accusations of bigotry which Europe has convinced itself doesn't exist within its domains.

Border control is not equivalent to racism. The people pushing for it loudly just tend to be doing it for blatantly racist reasons. Unsurprisingly, those people tend to abuse any ounce of power given to them. When they're granted extraordinary government powers, they make up official sounding reason to achieve their racist agenda. Hence the general consensus that any talk of border control is racism. The non-racist-d…

You think people who support border controls are simply prejudiced based on skin color? Like, their problem with Little Mogadishu or Little Bangladesh is that people in those places don't need sunscreen? Do you think that, if Ilhan Omar was Albanian, people would love her?

Re: Switzerland wil have a referendum to cap population at 10M

#273

Post by saagarjha »

kypro wrote: post #255
bapo wrote: post #146

Swiss here and able to vote. In fact, just posted my voting letter today, before taking a 1h bike ride through the biggest city in Switzerland, having lots of space and freedom biking around in our beautiful city. When taking the train to my parents house, I pass several farms and landly smaller cities. Alot of free space in between those, train mostly has spare seats, depending on rush hour timings. There usually ar…

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Yeah I think a culture that turns away asylum seekers is pretty awful tbh

Re: Switzerland wil have a referendum to cap population at 10M

#274

Post by throw-the-towel »

spockz wrote: post #220
throw-the-towel wrote: post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And it is in fact so full that traibs crossing over from Germany sometimes get denied entry into the Swiss networks because there's no room to fit them in the schedule.

AFAICT they only get denied if they are not on time.

Well that was my point. They come late, and there's nowhere to stick them in the schedule because it's already full.

Re: Switzerland wil have a referendum to cap population at 10M

#275

Post by wat10000 »

kypro wrote: post #255
bapo wrote: post #146

Swiss here and able to vote. In fact, just posted my voting letter today, before taking a 1h bike ride through the biggest city in Switzerland, having lots of space and freedom biking around in our beautiful city. When taking the train to my parents house, I pass several farms and landly smaller cities. Alot of free space in between those, train mostly has spare seats, depending on rush hour timings. There usually ar…

[flagged]

Many people are awful. I’d be fine with Afghan refugees moving in. Even if we accept the premise that Afghan culture is “awful,” wouldn’t the fact that they’ve fled the country indicate they’re not exactly in sync with that culture?

I live in an extremely diverse area with many immigrants on my street and it’s fine.

Re: Switzerland wil have a referendum to cap population at 10M

#276

Post by mahkeiro »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #96
arjie wrote: post #31

This is such a fascinating referendum. The population is at 9.1m, and at 9.5m it appears they'll stall asylum and family reunification, and at 10m they'll execute a Swexit - Switzerland isn't in the EU but it allows freedom of movement to EU nationals. Boy it is interesting to see what's going on in the world right now. There were so many things that I saw growing up as relatively solid but I just happened to grow up…

> execute a Swexit It wouldn’t be full Chexit. Just renegotiating and then rejecting the Schengen chapter. It would then be up to the EU to execute its Guillotine clause.

Schengen is not the free movement clause… sad to see people that don’t even know the difference (free movement existed before Schengen).

Re: Switzerland wil have a referendum to cap population at 10M

#277

Post by kuerbel »

wat10000 wrote: post #262
philipallstar wrote: post #227

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

I get hard working and low crime, but why does homogeneity make a country rich?

It's not even true, 40% of the population has an immigrant background. And as for low crime, yes, blue collar crime. Please don't ask about white collar crime, we don't talk about that here...

Re: Switzerland wil have a referendum to cap population at 10M

#278

Post by panick21_ »

philipallstar wrote: post #175
kaufmae wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

most of the immigrants are highly educated professionals, big tech, pharma and meds. it‘s not the „empty“.

They definitely aren't, but whomever they are they still requires houses, power and water.

And literally all the limits on those things are artificial. Its the same right wing idiots that want this referendum that prevent smart transportation infrastructure in cities, that delay important transportation investments, that prevent bike infrastructure, that had the brilliant plan of buying cheap energy from France and Germany and so on.

Re: Switzerland wil have a referendum to cap population at 10M

#279

Post by lukan »

fractallyte wrote: post #34
lukan wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hm. Are there any difference in the consequences for the immigrants, if they are kicked out because of arbitrary population cap, instead of anti-migration laws?

Why would you assume the population cap is arbitrary? There's a calculable limit to the population an area of land can sustain. (Yes, some agricultural practices can mitigate that, but that should also be weighed against culture and history, and how much change is acceptable.) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carrying_capacity

Ok, so how to calculate it for switzerland in a non arbitrary way?

(Btw. I believe switzerland is not trying to be self sufficient anyway, but donimport lots of stuff, like most other countries do)

Re: Switzerland wil have a referendum to cap population at 10M

#280

Post by ericmay »

Barrin92 wrote: post #238
ericmay wrote: post #200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This is a strange framing that itself usually comes from a standpoint of moral superiority. When you sign agreements with a governing body, like the EU on freedom of movement, and you break that agreement then there's consequences. And I don't mean that in an underhanded agressive way, but just literally you've broken the terms you had negotiated. I don't think so. Even in the case where the Swiss or UK are breakin…

>it isn't something that's uncommon as countries and nations and companies and all sorts of entities break or renegotiate agreements or contracts all the time. what the Swiss are trying to do here is very uncommon, in fact it's so uncommon literally nobody has ever done it before . No country in history has imposed a numerical population cap on its population, and in addition, freedom of movement isn't a detail. It's…

> what the Swiss are trying to do here is very uncommon, in fact it's so uncommon literally nobody has ever done it before. No country in history has imposed a numerical population cap on its population, and in addition, freedom of movement isn't a detail. It's the very core of the Treaty of Rome and the Schengen agreement that Switzerland is part of. That Europeans can now move freely between countries is the bedrock achievement of virtually all its labored for.

I think you are putting this referendum on a pedestal it doesn't need to go on. All countries control population to some extent, whether that's in how they support parental leave or how they support mothers, or through immigration control, quotas, points systems, &c. Switzerland is just adding in another wrinkle. Plus all legislation was at one point new.

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