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Switzerland wil have a referendum to cap population at 10M

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Re: Switzerland wil have a referendum to cap population at 10M

#191
post #31

This is such a fascinating referendum. The population is at 9.1m, and at 9.5m it appears they'll stall asylum and family reunification, and at 10m they'll execute a Swexit - Switzerland isn't in the EU but it allows freedom of movement to EU nationals. Boy it is interesting to see what's going on in the world right now. There were so many things that I saw growing up as relatively solid but I just happened to grow up…

Calling it a population cap for something that seems to be about stricter border controls is a wild marketing choice.

It is a population cap, you can read this proposal its like 5 lines of text.

Re: Switzerland wil have a referendum to cap population at 10M

#192
post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well I _am_ Swiss. You missed the part where we _voluntarily_ chose to enter into a contract with the EU that does in fact beholden us to EU laws. We can go back on that contract, but breaking your word is something that people remember for a reason.

Does the contract contain a section on breaking the agreement?

If it doesn’t, a whole lot of European lawyers need to turn in their licenses.

Re: Switzerland wil have a referendum to cap population at 10M

#193

Great that they can vote, but this is also stupid. Plus, it works both ways, so if Switzerland wants to add a cap to limit movement then it won't be able to enjoy free movement in the EU either. I totally understand why Norway and Switzerland do not want to join the EU; the EU has tons of problems, but this kind of cherry-picking is simply unfair to the other EU members. (Also, the EU has to stop expanding. It consta…

The EU expansion politics was a success. E.g. Poland was a great industry place for cheap labour, now it becomes a richer economy, they consume more expensive from Germany and France.

Re: Switzerland wil have a referendum to cap population at 10M

#195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

…if Greenland voted to join the U.S., the conversation would be quite different.

I don't think it would be - you're focusing on the actions of the territory (for lack of a better term) and ignoring the parent organization. It's a bit of a stretch to be upset at Switzerland who would be serving in a role similar to Scotland or Greenland here for voting to take an action and then being ok with it in other instances. There isn't any consistency in this position in how you are picking and choosing wh…

> you're focusing on the actions of the territory (for lack of a better term) and ignoring the parent organization

That’s how self determination works.

> bit of a stretch to be upset at Switzerland who would be serving in a role similar to Scotland or Greenland*

You’re muddling wildly different situations with wildly different levels of sympathy.

Re: Switzerland wil have a referendum to cap population at 10M

#196
post #189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A lot of people on the internet blame Canada's malaise on their historically lax immigration stance. While to a certain extent it has caused some social issues (eg. Indian, Chinese, Viet organized crime took advantage of it to leave crackdowns during the 2010s and 2020s and degree mills abounded), it's impact on the economy is overstated. Canada's economy was always a resource extraction and construction driven econo…

Serious question: what is ONG? I assume it's like LNG (liquefied natural gas), but after multiple searches, all I can come up with is Oklahoma Natural Gas, NGO in French, and On God.

It's the abbreviation for Oil and Natural Gas sector.

Re: Switzerland wil have a referendum to cap population at 10M

#197
post #31

This is such a fascinating referendum. The population is at 9.1m, and at 9.5m it appears they'll stall asylum and family reunification, and at 10m they'll execute a Swexit - Switzerland isn't in the EU but it allows freedom of movement to EU nationals. Boy it is interesting to see what's going on in the world right now. There were so many things that I saw growing up as relatively solid but I just happened to grow up…

Calling it a population cap for something that seems to be about stricter border controls is a wild marketing choice.

That avoids accusations of bigotry which Europe has convinced itself doesn't exist within its domains.

Re: Switzerland wil have a referendum to cap population at 10M

#198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And then the UK delivered an Article 50 notice. That isn’t something this referendum would force.

The UK's referendum was also non-binding, in theory.

> UK's referendum was also non-binding, in theory

If SVP gets control of government they’ll probably try to Chexit irrespective of any referendum power. That’s orthogonal to this question.

Re: Switzerland wil have a referendum to cap population at 10M

#199
post #146

Swiss here and able to vote. In fact, just posted my voting letter today, before taking a 1h bike ride through the biggest city in Switzerland, having lots of space and freedom biking around in our beautiful city. When taking the train to my parents house, I pass several farms and landly smaller cities. Alot of free space in between those, train mostly has spare seats, depending on rush hour timings. There usually ar…

> benefits from diverse cultures You mean "benefits from increased population," right? Because isn't the whole theory that people are the same? If so, you're just adding new people who are exactly the same as the existing people. So the only benefits come from having more people, or more people with certain skills (if you're filtering based on that).

Nobody in Switzerland is worried about the population growing due to birthrate. This referendum is about stopping immigration (even though in Switzerland more than anywhere else, immigration is at the foundation of the country's wealth).

Re: Switzerland wil have a referendum to cap population at 10M

#200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It would then be up to the EU to execute its Guillotine clause. These kinds of morally-superior, we'll show them, type of attitudes and suggestions are precisely why so many folks have come to be anti-EU. Nevermind the actual other real day-to-day issues with the organization. I'm sure you're also staunchly against Scotland and any referendum to join the EU, and against Catalonia becoming independent as well? Why s…

>These kinds of morally-superior, we'll show them, type of attitudes This is a strange framing that itself usually comes from a standpoint of moral superiority. When you sign agreements with a governing body, like the EU on freedom of movement, and you break that agreement then there's consequences. And I don't mean that in an underhanded agressive way, but just literally you've broken the terms you had negotiated. T…

> This is a strange framing that itself usually comes from a standpoint of moral superiority. When you sign agreements with a governing body, like the EU on freedom of movement, and you break that agreement then there's consequences. And I don't mean that in an underhanded agressive way, but just literally you've broken the terms you had negotiated.

I don't think so. Even in the case where the Swiss or UK are breaking agreements or demanding changes to those agreements, it isn't something that's uncommon as countries and nations and companies and all sorts of entities break or renegotiate agreements or contracts all the time. In the case of Switzerland let's say they no longer feel the EU's freedom of movement policy works with the existing agreement because the EU has failed to protect its borders. You're painting a breaking of the agreement in the sense that nothing has changed in the agreement, but that may not be true and so breaking the agreement by the Swiss would have actually been because of a break in the agreement by the EU.

These interactions taking place and then now all of a sudden the Swiss are to be the recipient of some draconian action "we'll show them" is not really that strange given it's relatively straightforward to see how these two entities can reasonable come to a disagreement which may or may not resolve itself.

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