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Vitamin D3 During Pregnancy and Cognitive Performance at 10 Years

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51–60 of 90 posts

Re: Vitamin D3 During Pregnancy and Cognitive Performance at 10 Years

#51
Meanwhile, the endocrine society is still murdering millions by asking people to not supplement vitamin D3 and to explicitly not test for it either. The times must be tough for endocrinologists with people supplementing high-dose vitamin D3 and testing routinely to ensure an optimal level, tough enough to want to keep people very sick.

Re: Vitamin D3 During Pregnancy and Cognitive Performance at 10 Years

#52

I have thoughts on this 1. Yes, vitamin D actually controls a lot of bodily functions it’s very easily set aside as not a “main” factor when in reality it actually controls a lot 2. This study was done on women in Denmark only which isn’t a great study subject considering Denmark doesn’t get a lot of sun to begin with so most of these women would already start at very low levels 3. This doesn’t directly correlate to…

2. Good for us who live in Northern Europe! Or does everything have to be tested in California or MENA or India?

You can probably have the same results in the New England area of the USA, no? Even NY with 10mil people?

3. Okay, and?

Re: Vitamin D3 During Pregnancy and Cognitive Performance at 10 Years

#53
Can you say p-hacking? It was designed and powered to test whether prenatal vitamin D reduces childhood asthma/wheeze, and found no effect on that primary outcome. The rest is just shuffling numbers and statistical methods around until something with p > .05 pops out.

They flags their own post hoc status, reports modest effect sizes, and applies some multiple-comparison correction. That makes the rhetorical sleight of hand harder to spot, because it's buried inside otherwise careful looking work.

The statistics are shit. They applied Benjamini-Hochberg FDR correction within cognitive domains, not across the family of 11 functions. That choice is what produced the headline "memory survived correction."

Watch what happens with the actual numbers. The two "winning" functions, verbal memory (p = .02) and visual memory (p = .01), both sit inside the memory domain — which contains exactly those two functions. BH within a 2-member family barely adjusts anything: the most lenient threshold is just 0.05, and both p-values are already under it, so the q-values come back at .02 and .02. The correction was toothless by construction, because the two hits happened to fall in the same tiny domain. A reviewer should have made them show the whole-family result side by side. The fact that they didn't is the tell. And there is much more that could be criticized in the same manner across the whole thing.

And then the observational data fail to corroborate the supplementation finding. The authors explain the mismatch via trimester timing of exposure, which is plausible, but the equally plausible reading is that the RCT hits are fragile, or that, more probably, it's not a real effect.

And even if there was an effect, it's so small and weak and NOT proven by even this data, that the recommendation for supplementation is not warranted at all. At best, this single study with their focus on recreating this effect is the only defensible conclusion. And yet they recommend supplementation.This is pure bias and D-vitamin cult babble once again.

The conclusion, based on the actual data, is: in a vitamin-D-sufficient cohort, high-dose prenatal D3 was not associated with offspring cognition on any whole-battery-corrected measure.

I hate this so much because it's stupidity like this that shows that science is not worth paying attention to, because the scientists basically lie through their teeth, at least from my perspective, where truth is something that is verifiable and relates to something real.

Re: Vitamin D3 During Pregnancy and Cognitive Performance at 10 Years

#54
post #47
post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This study was done on women in Denmark only which isn’t a great study subject considering Denmark doesn’t get a lot of sun to begin with so most of these women would already start at very low levels Generally, when a study is done in the US - no one will ever question the location. The moment the study is outside the US, "not US so not generalisable" questions always arise.

The grandparent explained exactly why it is an issue though. It isn't because US is somehow just magically more legitimate than Denmark. As they stated, it is because the population of Denmark is very homogenous, as opposed to the US. If you are trying to make a generalization that applies to a range beyond just white people, having Denmark as your sole sample is clearly flawed. Along the same lines, picking Japan fo…

I don't think it invalidates a study as long as you do things on relative terms and have a control group. Another study can see if the same delta effect is reproducible in an e.g. homogeneous Asian population and report on it.

It is probably a logistical nightmare to do a study of this sort in multiple countries and regulatory systems simultaneously.

Re: Vitamin D3 During Pregnancy and Cognitive Performance at 10 Years

#55
the Vitamin D cult is a bit insane

it is -exactly- like Linus Pauling and Vitamin C cult in the previous century

Vitamin D is very important

Too Much is as bad as Too Little

The "RDA" is too low at 600IU and should have been changed to 2000IU decades ago

It can help prevent certain diseases and illnesses

It CANNOT cure any known disease or illness once afllicted

Re: Vitamin D3 During Pregnancy and Cognitive Performance at 10 Years

#57
post #40

I have thoughts on this 1. Yes, vitamin D actually controls a lot of bodily functions it’s very easily set aside as not a “main” factor when in reality it actually controls a lot 2. This study was done on women in Denmark only which isn’t a great study subject considering Denmark doesn’t get a lot of sun to begin with so most of these women would already start at very low levels 3. This doesn’t directly correlate to…

For point 2: I don't think there's really good or bad places to study it, it might not generalize to sunnier places but the reverse is also true. Presumably the scientists working on this can understand these things (I know in my field I'm aware that studies in the tropics will find different things than studies in Canada). For my own point: in this study they have like 22 test values but still use the 95% confidence…

I just skimmed the summary but in the results section it reports three significant results and two after “multiple-test correction”. I’m not sure how they did that correction; I would expect that measures of cognitive performance are correlated for each child and so the standard Bonferroni correction might be too harsh to apply here.

> Covariate-adjusted analyses of standardized scores (mean [SD], 0 [1]; higher values indicating better performance) showed positive associations of high-dose vitamin D3 with verbal memory (β = 0.17 SD; 95% CI, 0.03-0.32 SD; P = .02), visual memory (β = 0.24 SD; 95% CI, 0.06-0.42 SD; P = .01), and flexibility or set shift (β = 0.19 SD; 95% CI, 0.01-0.37 SD; P = .04); however, high-dose vitamin D3 was no longer associated with flexibility or set shift after multiple test correction.

Re: Vitamin D3 During Pregnancy and Cognitive Performance at 10 Years

#58
post #47
post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This study was done on women in Denmark only which isn’t a great study subject considering Denmark doesn’t get a lot of sun to begin with so most of these women would already start at very low levels Generally, when a study is done in the US - no one will ever question the location. The moment the study is outside the US, "not US so not generalisable" questions always arise.

The grandparent explained exactly why it is an issue though. It isn't because US is somehow just magically more legitimate than Denmark. As they stated, it is because the population of Denmark is very homogenous, as opposed to the US. If you are trying to make a generalization that applies to a range beyond just white people, having Denmark as your sole sample is clearly flawed. Along the same lines, picking Japan fo…

> considering Denmark doesn’t get a lot of sun

> As they stated, it is because the population of Denmark is very homogenous

If you know about vitamin D, you'll note that sun exposure is one of the primary reasons location matters for this study. It would be similarly relevant if they only studied students in Miami or southern California.

Essentially: sun exposure helps you create vitamin D, and so you shouldn't naively generalize this study to other lines of latitude

Re: Vitamin D3 During Pregnancy and Cognitive Performance at 10 Years

#59
> We found that high-dose supplementation was positively associated with 3 of 11 functions assessed: verbal memory, visual memory, and flexibility or set shift. However, the association with flexibility or set shift was not significant after correction for multiple testing.

They tested 11 different measures. Only 3 of those tests showed significance, but after they corrected for multiple testing the significance of 2 of those disappeared. Only 1 test remained below the significance threshold.

This is on a set size of about 500 children who completed the study, randomized to the two groups.

The only measure that remained statistically significant was visual memory. If you look at Figure 2 it's not even clear that there was a trend toward improvement because everything is so scattered, including a couple measures that were trending worse with higher Vitamin D levels.

This study isn't very convincing. It's a classic p-hacking trick to include many different smaller tests so if one of them pops up as an outlier you can claim that something was significant.

Re: Vitamin D3 During Pregnancy and Cognitive Performance at 10 Years

#60

I have thoughts on this 1. Yes, vitamin D actually controls a lot of bodily functions it’s very easily set aside as not a “main” factor when in reality it actually controls a lot 2. This study was done on women in Denmark only which isn’t a great study subject considering Denmark doesn’t get a lot of sun to begin with so most of these women would already start at very low levels 3. This doesn’t directly correlate to…

> Denmark doesn’t get a lot of sun to begin

First, that's only true for about 4 months of the year. Second, people cooped up in offices in China, India, and the US don't get a lot of light either. In fact I'd bet the better work-life balance in Denmark means people actually do get more light there because they spend more of their evenings and weekends outside instead of in the office. Office buildings in Denmark also tend to have much better sunlight by design.

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