Live data from Hacker News

Tokenomics: Quantifying Where Tokens Are Used in Agentic Software Engineering

arxiv.org

51–60 of 98 posts

Re: Tokenomics: Quantifying Where Tokens Are Used in Agentic Software Engineering

#51
post #46
post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Did you experiment with giving agent better tools to navigate and document the codebase? Asts, language servers and so on? A million tokens (not cached) sounds like a lot.

The target codebase is very large. A million tokens is a drop in the proverbial bucket. I still don't understand how caching helps me very much. I must be misunderstanding it because I thought the user's prompt (which is the biggest variable) necessarily sits prior to all of these token intensive tool calls. How can we cache the reading of codebase if the prefix is always moving?

> The target codebase is very large.

But, does every prompt need the entire codebase?

Re: Tokenomics: Quantifying Where Tokens Are Used in Agentic Software Engineering

#52

I have a MA system setup for personal use. You give it a problem, you then refine that problem where a fast, cheaper model asks you questions which you answer to get a better input prompt. You then choose a MA strategy for example take problem break up to sections then final judge concludes or you do multi turn where agents debate then judge summarises debate. The best approach is what I call 'all angles' where all t…

So what harness are you using? And what LLM’s

Re: Tokenomics: Quantifying Where Tokens Are Used in Agentic Software Engineering

#53
post #30

At its current iteration the AI tech market is not economically sustainable, not for the other markets outside the AI economy, and most deadly not even for the main target customers or AI tech companies themselves. There have been several news of companies having overspent their token budget month after month. The hardware monopolist and his network of buddy companies can determine the token price as freely as they w…

I don't think business is interested in any sustainability of anything. There's zero incentives for that for anyone.

Re: Tokenomics: Quantifying Where Tokens Are Used in Agentic Software Engineering

#54

In the past Google et al would hire engineers based on how well they could optimize the infrastructure. Maybe soon companies will look at how engineers can optimize the token efficiency of AI.

I know how to drop a company’s token costs to zero: treat tokens as a utility same as internet and make engineers pay for it.

I would easily pay a lot of money to have access to AI for my job. I actually do pay. If the cost was significant I'd just add it to hourly rate that I consider acceptable. Company always pays in the end, because company is the only entity with money in this setup.

Re: Tokenomics: Quantifying Where Tokens Are Used in Agentic Software Engineering

#55

I have a MA system setup for personal use. You give it a problem, you then refine that problem where a fast, cheaper model asks you questions which you answer to get a better input prompt. You then choose a MA strategy for example take problem break up to sections then final judge concludes or you do multi turn where agents debate then judge summarises debate. The best approach is what I call 'all angles' where all t…

So what harness are you using? And what LLM’s

Homebrew harness and all frontier ones plus deepseek. All via Openrouter at the moment. Works well enough but can get expensive so use for real high value challenges. Interestingly the refine feature has been most useful to me and people I have shown, essentially people are lazy when expressing the initial problem (me included!), refine asks relevant questions to initial problem then refines the initial statement, user can accept/reject/edit before submitting.

Re: Tokenomics: Quantifying Where Tokens Are Used in Agentic Software Engineering

#56
post #46
post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Did you experiment with giving agent better tools to navigate and document the codebase? Asts, language servers and so on? A million tokens (not cached) sounds like a lot.

The target codebase is very large. A million tokens is a drop in the proverbial bucket. I still don't understand how caching helps me very much. I must be misunderstanding it because I thought the user's prompt (which is the biggest variable) necessarily sits prior to all of these token intensive tool calls. How can we cache the reading of codebase if the prefix is always moving?

Often to me it seams like using MA is like letting a million monkeys lose.

Has ai forgotten about high level design? Surely all it needs to know is what the methods, objects or functions in the code base actually does and the actual code it is meant to be fixing?

I wonder if half the issues is that the LLM try to change too much?

Re: Tokenomics: Quantifying Where Tokens Are Used in Agentic Software Engineering

#57
post #18
post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That assumes Tokens will remain a meaningful expense. I’m not sure developers will find uses for ever more tokens nearly as quickly as the prices fall.

How are we so confident that prices will fall? Isn't the exact opposite happening, right now, during arguably the most critical part of this whole saga (pre-IPO to make things appear as beautiful and as not-obviously-illegal as possible)? And the only reason they were "falling" previously was for hyper growth.

Pricing on SToA models probably won’t fall, there’s no reason for the frontier labs to lower their prices.

But we’re seeing lots of open weight models that are either pretty close to SToA, or more importantly, perfectly capable of doing all the low level token insensitive grunt work when writing code. Pairing them with SToA models for long horizon task management, and you’ve got a very cost effective system.

The frontier labs have put little effort into cost efficient inference, they don’t need to, but folks like DeepSeek clearly are, and have achieved some impressive cost improvements. Given DeepSeeks models give you 70% of the capabilities for 30% of the cost, expect people to start moving lots of workloads to providers that provide cheap inference for open models, and huge competition to appear to provide that cheap inference. It’s truly commodity LLM inference.

In turn expect more companies to focus on building inferences efficient models, because someone that can build a model that provides 70% of SToA capabilities for 10% of the token cost, immediately eats up huge amounts of the available inference market.

Another factor in all this, is it’s becoming increasingly clear that building custom agents/workflows for LLM to operate in, is required to get the best out of these models. That means people are implicitly building the infra needed to use multiple model types and evaluate workflow performance end-to-end. Which in turn means they have everything they need to plugin in future, cheaper, inference providers and quickly evaluate if they can change their model provider.

Re: Tokenomics: Quantifying Where Tokens Are Used in Agentic Software Engineering

#58
post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The target codebase is very large. A million tokens is a drop in the proverbial bucket. I still don't understand how caching helps me very much. I must be misunderstanding it because I thought the user's prompt (which is the biggest variable) necessarily sits prior to all of these token intensive tool calls. How can we cache the reading of codebase if the prefix is always moving?

> The target codebase is very large. But, does every prompt need the entire codebase?

How could it not? Can you ever guarantee accurate answers about a book you haven't entirely read?

Re: Tokenomics: Quantifying Where Tokens Are Used in Agentic Software Engineering

#59
post #8

One thing I've noticed using agents for coding is that they really like to write thousands of unit tests but not dynamically test.

And AWS heavily pushes a complex lambda solution stringing together as many chargeable AWS services as possible for a simple requirement Their interests are often not your interests. In this case they want you to unnecessary money on useless work (let's stop the euphemism of "tokens" btw)

This kind of cute conspiracy theories don’t actually hold true in real life. The companies want to make useful products.

Re: Tokenomics: Quantifying Where Tokens Are Used in Agentic Software Engineering

#60

I have a MA system setup for personal use. You give it a problem, you then refine that problem where a fast, cheaper model asks you questions which you answer to get a better input prompt. You then choose a MA strategy for example take problem break up to sections then final judge concludes or you do multi turn where agents debate then judge summarises debate. The best approach is what I call 'all angles' where all t…

Definitely interested, would love to see a video :)
Post reply on HN