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DoD Officially Drops 180 Faiths from Military's Recognized Religion List

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Re: DoD Officially Drops 180 Faiths from Military's Recognized Religion List

#31

Post by zzo38computer »

readthenotes1 wrote: post #14
uneekname wrote: post #2

They don't recognize atheists anymore? Am I reading that right?

Is "no religion" atheist? Or is "Atheism" an organized religion now?

Atheism is not a religion, and someone who is religious can also be atheist (and some religions are not theistic), although having no religion does not necessarily make you atheist either (although many atheists are not religious). (However, considering that, putting "agnostic" in there seems to be strange compared to this.)

Howveer, when knowing what should be in the list, there is the question of what the information is used for, in order to know what divisions are helpful for this purpose.

Re: DoD Officially Drops 180 Faiths from Military's Recognized Religion List

#32

Post by cpfohl »

Atotalnoob wrote: post #12
cpfohl wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Uh, honest question: why would you put atheist on a list of religions? Like…leave the religion off the dog tag and that communicates enough right? What’s there to recognize? I’m super not trying to be antagonistic. I’m trying to understand why an atheist would be upset by this.

Religion provides certain benefits in the military. If you are say a Christian, you get assigned time to go to a (hopefully) air conditioned church and relax and recover. Even if it’s short, it can be beneficial to collect yourself in a high stress situation like basic training/boot camp. If you elect not to go to a religious service, you typically have to keep doing whatever you are doing. Atheists or other less org…

Got it, that helps me understand.

I am curious how the variety of faith based practices could be handled…I’m super on board with providing a universal spiritual/mental health space regardless of your affiliation. That gets very weird when you start having to account for the variety of schedules and practices.

I am pretty sure I disagree on religious orgs having no more rights than a business. I think that seriously under accounts for the degree of identity that folks get from their religious affiliations and the types of activities businesses and religious groups tend to do.

A business and religious group are pretty fundamentally different…I’d have to reflect a lot longer and harder to come up with a more stable and coherent stance on that. I can definitely think of valid arguments on either side.

Re: DoD Officially Drops 180 Faiths from Military's Recognized Religion List

#34

Post by zzo38computer »

jltsiren wrote: post #18
slg wrote: post #6

It's notable that the original list with the extra 180 religions was from Trump's first term, so this is another example of the doubling down on white Christian identity politics that has come to define Trump's second term. Also one small potentially controversial decision here that I find amusing in a narcissism of small differences kind of way, Mormons aren't considered Christian according to this list.

The choice with Mormons is technically correct. Those who use theological considerations to define Christianity generally don't accept Mormons as Christians. For example, the Catholic Church sees Mormonism a non-Christian religion, because it rejects the Nicene Creed. People who base Christianity on cultural identity are more likely to include Mormons in the definition.

It does seem to be common to make LDS not counted as Christianity, although the reason is unclear to me.

Another comment mentions that the rejection of the Nicene Creed does not seem to be the distinction.

I had thought that it is because they have the Book of Mormon, although that is unclear. Orthodox have additional books of the Bible that Catholics do not have, but are still Christian. (Although, I think the additional books that the Orthodox have are still a part of the Bible, and Book of Mormon is different.)

Something that I had heard is that it is because Mormons use a different baptism, which is not Trinitarian. However, it seems that it is Trinitarian, although this trinity is different from that of Christians (even though they still say "the Father", "the Son", and "the Holy Spirit").

Quakers (which are listed as Christian) also apparently do not use baptism (and reject other sacraments as well). Although the Religious Society of Friends is Christian, they do have differences and not all Quakers are necessarily Christian (or necessarily theists).

So, I don't know.

Re: DoD Officially Drops 180 Faiths from Military's Recognized Religion List

#35

Post by throwaway81523 »

ChrisMarshallNY wrote: post #9
throwaway81523 wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ok I looked at the list. There are 31 entries, which are "no religion", "agnostic", Baha'i, Buddhist, Hindu, Muslim, Jewish, Sikh, and 22 different varities of Christian (Baptist, Catholic, etc.). Sheesh. At least they didn't get all the way to “Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region Council of 1912". (explanation: https://www.fpcmarion.org/2024/04/die-heretic/ )

Here's the video of it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ANNX_XiuA78

Heh nothing like what I'd have guessed.

There's also this: https://theonion.com/various-deities-still-sorting-through-v...

Re: DoD Officially Drops 180 Faiths from Military's Recognized Religion List

#36

Post by CobaltFire »

defrost wrote: post #22
ajcp wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

one core tenant of Christianity is that Christ the Messiah obviates prophecy. No denomination of Christianity (AFAIK) considers the LDS as true Christians...except for the LDS themselves

Just to clear this up, all the various "Christian" ministries that embrace modern prophecy and prophets are, therefore, not actually Christian? From the beginning of the Assemblies of God, prophecy has been affirmed as a spiritual gift for the Church today. Since the Day of Pentecost, the Church has functioned as a prophetic community. Any Spirit-filled believer may prophesy while discernment and judgment of prophecy…

Had to look Wagyl up. Thanks for teaching me something new!

Re: DoD Officially Drops 180 Faiths from Military's Recognized Religion List

#37

Post by defrost »

CobaltFire wrote: post #36
defrost wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just to clear this up, all the various "Christian" ministries that embrace modern prophecy and prophets are, therefore, not actually Christian? From the beginning of the Assemblies of God, prophecy has been affirmed as a spiritual gift for the Church today. Since the Day of Pentecost, the Church has functioned as a prophetic community. Any Spirit-filled believer may prophesy while discernment and judgment of prophecy…

Had to look Wagyl up. Thanks for teaching me something new!

Glad that was of interest, the works of Wagyl are held sacred to some: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=djEqLRdqScM although many entities vie for riding shotgun: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ThLdUGczSNw

Re: DoD Officially Drops 180 Faiths from Military's Recognized Religion List

#38

Post by thesuperbigfrog »

zzo38computer wrote: post #34
jltsiren wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The choice with Mormons is technically correct. Those who use theological considerations to define Christianity generally don't accept Mormons as Christians. For example, the Catholic Church sees Mormonism a non-Christian religion, because it rejects the Nicene Creed. People who base Christianity on cultural identity are more likely to include Mormons in the definition.

It does seem to be common to make LDS not counted as Christianity, although the reason is unclear to me. Another comment mentions that the rejection of the Nicene Creed does not seem to be the distinction. I had thought that it is because they have the Book of Mormon, although that is unclear. Orthodox have additional books of the Bible that Catholics do not have, but are still Christian. (Although, I think the addit…

>> Something that I had heard is that it is because Mormons use a different baptism, which is not Trinitarian. However, it seems that it is Trinitarian, although this trinity is different from that of Christians (even though they still say "the Father", "the Son", and "the Holy Spirit").

I had not heard that so I looked it up:

-----------

Catholic baptism:

“I baptize you in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit.” The matter is the water poured over the head of the recipient. Traditionally, the one being baptized has water poured over them or is fully emerged in water three times.

Source: https://ascensionpress.com/blogs/articles/the-ultimate-guide...

(Some) Protestant baptism:

Each candidate is presented by name to the Celebrant, or to an assisting priest or deacon, who then immerses, or pours water upon, the candidate, saying

N., I baptize you in the Name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit. Amen.

Source: https://www.bcponline.org/Baptism/holybaptism.html

(Some groups do it differently, but this seems to be common.)

Mormon baptism:

73 The person who is called of God and has authority from Jesus Christ to baptize, shall go down into the water with the person who has presented himself or herself for baptism, and shall say, calling him or her by name: Having been commissioned of Jesus Christ, I baptize you in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. Amen.

74 Then shall he immerse him or her in the water, and come forth again out of the water.

Source: https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/dc-test...

-----------

I am not an expert, but they all seem mostly the same to me?

Re: DoD Officially Drops 180 Faiths from Military's Recognized Religion List

#40

Post by ChiperSoft »

xboxnolifes wrote: post #29
elyobo wrote: post #11

What's the effect of this? I don't really understand why they have a "recognised" list at all or what the implications are.

Various laws, regulations, and processes come with religious exceptions. In order to qualify for religious exceptions, you need to follow a qualified religion.

That does explain why Jehovah's Witnesses would be on here. They won multiple court cases to be excluded from military services.
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