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Pentagon raised threat of Israeli spying on U.S. to highest level, sources say

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Re: Pentagon raised threat of Israeli spying on U.S. to highest level, sources say

#251

Post by YZF »

oa335 wrote: post #220
YZF wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You must be joking re: peaceful before US and Europe. The first crusade was in 1099 for those who don't know the details. We had the Byzantine-Arab wars, Fatimid civil wars, Turkish invasions... Ofcourse we had the whole spread of Islam "by sword". Don't forget it was the Roman invasion of the region in 63 BCE that resulted in the mass murder and expulsion of Jewish people from Israel after the Bar Kokhba Revolt... A…

compare list of conflicts in europe to those in middle east over past from 1000 AD - 1900AD: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_conflicts_in_Europe in particular state formation in late medieval and early modern europe saw immense bloodshed and turmoil. middle east was comparatively peaceful in contrast, especially post mongol conquest. e.g. compare 1700s and 1800s europe to middle east

So you're arguing the crusaders brought peace to the middle east?

This history is so vast I can't even begin to think about how to compare. But one thing that feels odd to me is how people think of the middle east as somehow separate/far from Europe when in fact it's basically the same neighborhood. The Greek and the Romans were there. Under the Ottoman Empire, Muslims from present day Bosnia moved to present day Israel: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bushnak

Don't forget that Christianity came from the middle east and ofcourse Islam.

The Ottoman Empire ruled vast swaths of present day Europe. Spain was under Muslim rule until 1492.

It's all one big mesh. Just yesterday I learnt that many present day Yemeni trace their roots to the Levant. Very different than farther regions like Afria, China, India and ofcourse the Americas, Australia etc.

Re: Pentagon raised threat of Israeli spying on U.S. to highest level, sources say

#252

Post by flyinglizard »

vkou wrote: post #219
rf15 wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Forcing the existence of a new jewish state has created, as expected, a permanent political fissure in the area. This is just dumb ideas piling up upon one another.

> Forcing the existence of a new jewish state has created, as expected, a permanent political fissure in the area. No, forcing the existence of a new aggressively expansionist jewish state did that.

Mind you Israel was the one that supported the partition plan in 1948. The expansion came from the other side who wanted it all

Re: Pentagon raised threat of Israeli spying on U.S. to highest level, sources say

#253

Post by make3 »

himata4113 wrote: post #53
make3 wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thinking that Israel potentially spies on the US government is not what anyone reasonable would call a conspiracy theory.

ask AI with internet access disabled aka: the aggregate of the entire internet. every single ai, chinese included will call it antisemitism.

[dead]

Re: Pentagon raised threat of Israeli spying on U.S. to highest level, sources say

#254

Post by iugtmkbdfil834 »

QQ00 wrote: post #214
TurdF3rguson wrote: post #182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't see how that's a win for him since the outcome was a stronger Iran.

more like weaker iran than ever, now that the central command are gone, no leader at the top and no high level generals, the power at the hand of mid level thugs of the IRGC.

The argument is interesting, because it happens to repeat administration's assertions. It also is interesting, because the argument itself attempts make peace with the idea that wiping out central command & leadership did not put US in a more favorable position in general.

I guess I will just point out that 'weaker than ever' is doing a lot of work here without being specific on what strength means here. I don't want to put words in your mouth.

It is quite ridiculous to watch though. There are ( well, were ) reasons as to why IC was very vocal about not doing what Trump admin's decided to do. And now they are looking to find a reason, any reason that can deflect the blame..

Why? No one likes a loser politician.. not even Trump's electorate. And it is hard to spin lost war AND higher gas prices AND higher inflation.

Re: Pentagon raised threat of Israeli spying on U.S. to highest level, sources say

#255

Post by mikewarot »

woodruffw wrote: post #202
TurdF3rguson wrote: post #182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't see how that's a win for him since the outcome was a stronger Iran.

It's simpler than this: Israel benefits from Iran needing to spend large amounts of money on its own infrastructure and civilian needs, rather than on military development. Getting a larger country (the US) to create those money sinks (in the form of a broadly unserious conflict) achieves that outcome. (The irony being that this is Iran's strategy w/r/t Hormuz as well.)

> Israel benefits from Iran needing to spend large amounts of money on its own infrastructure and civilian needs, rather than on military development.

Yeah, but the rest of the world is now going to pay for that, and more, with the $2million toll on oil through the Straight of Hormuz.

Re: Pentagon raised threat of Israeli spying on U.S. to highest level, sources say

#256

Post by QQ00 »

AnimalMuppet wrote: post #231
QQ00 wrote: post #207

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Both Netanyahu and Trump have a vested interest in promoting the idea of... you mentioned what Netanyahu gained from this but what about trump?

Maybe that it's not his fault? But that's at the price of not being in control. I don't know if he thinks that's a win...

considering Trump's personality, i don't think this is a win, his followers certainly wouldn't like that as well. I'm pretty sure this idea isn't even part of their stream of thoughts that trump is a puppet of bibi and this whole war was conducted following the command from Netanyahu.

Re: Pentagon raised threat of Israeli spying on U.S. to highest level, sources say

#257

Post by jameshilliard »

Cyph0n wrote: post #249
orwin wrote: post #187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, the 30k number is hogwash, but HR NGOs and OSINT volunteers worked up 7k dead in protest over 50 days, including 200 police/military forces, and a maximum of 18k death if you count the fights against separatist/freedom fighter/terrorists (depending on who you are aligned with, choose the description you like more)

Hogwash? More like state-backed propaganda disseminated by so-called objective and professional media organizations in order to justify an offensive war against Iran; a war that has achieved virtually none of its stated aims. I personally trust OSINT sources more than NGOs these days. I would wager that the security forces numbers are higher. I would also wager that the majority of the deaths were CIA and Mossad back…

> I would also wager that the majority of the deaths were CIA and Mossad backed insurgents operating in the context of a wider, legitimate, civilian-led protest movement.

This seems far less likely than the most plausible scenarios, which is that most deaths were the result of IRGC terrorists opening fire into crowds of protesters for the purposes of ensuring they remain in power.

Re: Pentagon raised threat of Israeli spying on U.S. to highest level, sources say

#258

Post by iugtmkbdfil834 »

jameshilliard wrote: post #247
swat535 wrote: post #225

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm Iranian, now living in the west. Allow me to chime in.. So Iran doesn't have a central command, they've developed a mosaic system where the 30+ chains operate autonomously. It is also multi-layered (IRGC, Artesh, Basij, etc). The multi-layered design was developed after the revolution, when they realized that the regime should be protected in case of internal mutiny. IRGC specifically was put in place to protect…

> The biggest mistake US & Israel did was underestimating Iran, specifically their defensive capabilities. They've prepared for this war for 47 years, _literally_ praying for it. You had Abbas Araghchi on TV literally inviting American army into Iran for a ground invasion. Iran would be highly unlikely to be able to prevent a ground invasion from the US since Iran's convention military capabilities are not particular…

Ngl, anyone arguing for a ground invasion of Iran will have a hard time convincing US population. I get that president's war powers are pretty expansive, but everything has limits.

Re: Pentagon raised threat of Israeli spying on U.S. to highest level, sources say

#259

Post by karim79 »

delecti wrote: post #48
basilgohar wrote: post #31

"Government suddenly and confusingly starts acting accordingly to what everyone's already know for a long time." This is really quite scary when you think about it. Why now all of a sudden?

Maybe this is a bit glib, but it's because attacking Iran (which everyone knew was a bad idea but which presumably seemed useful as a distraction) turned out to be a bad idea. So the administration is taking it out on Israel, who wanted us to do it.

Because now the manifestation of all this crap has reached a nuclear stage of undeniability.

It has literally been simmering for a long time and now it finally comes out. Taking it out on Israel is not wrong and that's not to say that they (the Israeli government) hold the sole responsibility for this. The US had a say in this as well. But now the US is questioning the benefits of this complete and total asshattery and rightly so. Better late than never I suppose.

Re: Pentagon raised threat of Israeli spying on U.S. to highest level, sources say

#260

Post by woodruffw »

mikewarot wrote: post #255
woodruffw wrote: post #202

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's simpler than this: Israel benefits from Iran needing to spend large amounts of money on its own infrastructure and civilian needs, rather than on military development. Getting a larger country (the US) to create those money sinks (in the form of a broadly unserious conflict) achieves that outcome. (The irony being that this is Iran's strategy w/r/t Hormuz as well.)

> Israel benefits from Iran needing to spend large amounts of money on its own infrastructure and civilian needs, rather than on military development. Yeah, but the rest of the world is now going to pay for that, and more, with the $2million toll on oil through the Straight of Hormuz.

Yes, to be clear that wasn't a normative (as in "this is good") appraisal.
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