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Python JIT project was asked to pause development

discuss.python.org

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Re: Python JIT project was asked to pause development

#41

Post by pjmlp »

scott_w wrote: post #34
mwkaufma wrote: post #26

>> While the intent is not to call for competing proposals, we believe that now is a good time to discuss and propose alternative proposals as well. lol >> For example, rather than proposing one single concrete JIT implementation, it may make more sense for the PEP to describe a JIT infrastructure that can support multiple implementation strategies. poison-pill requirement >> We are setting a window of six months for…

No, it’s a simple request to fully investigate the options before committing a massive piece of work to Python. We’ve seen bad implementations of things land before and now live forever. And frankly, if the team can’t pull together a strong maintenance plan, it can’t be allowed to remain in main.

So it will join PyPy and GraalPy in the corner.

Python JIT history is full of drama, and no, Smalltalk, Common Lisp, Interlisp-D, SELF are just as dynamic if not more.

Re: Python JIT project was asked to pause development

#42

Post by mike_hearn »

simonw wrote: post #30
jhayward wrote: post #8

> While the intent is not to call for competing proposals, we believe that now is a good time to discuss and propose alternative proposals as well. If I were a contributor I would read such language as saying "we have no respect for you or your intelligence, so we'll just straight up gaslight you and expect you to accept it." The dictum can't be read literally - it has to be read like the manipulative, narcissist-spe…

"it has to be read like the manipulative, narcissist-speak that it is" That's a very strong claim. I'm not seeing that at all. What causes you to interpret it that way?

It's because they say they don't want to call for competitors and then immediately do so in the second half of the same sentence. It probably wasn't written with bad intent, but you can see why people might find it a strange choice.

Re: Python JIT project was asked to pause development

#44

Post by onlyrealcuzzo »

pjmlp wrote: post #41
scott_w wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, it’s a simple request to fully investigate the options before committing a massive piece of work to Python. We’ve seen bad implementations of things land before and now live forever. And frankly, if the team can’t pull together a strong maintenance plan, it can’t be allowed to remain in main.

So it will join PyPy and GraalPy in the corner. Python JIT history is full of drama, and no, Smalltalk, Common Lisp, Interlisp-D, SELF are just as dynamic if not more.

And Ruby

Re: Python JIT project was asked to pause development

#45

Post by ptx »

ameliaquining wrote: post #40
12398761 wrote: post #11

That was kind of overdue. The project started five years ago while massively overpromising. They should perhaps have kept it in a separate branch back then, but now is the next best time. CPython's selling point was that it is simple, fast enough with C extensions and the code was accessible. Complicating the code base for occasional 50% speedups (and regressions ...) just isn't worth it. There are so many other lang…

This hasn't been true for a very long time. Python's major selling points these days are the accessibility of the language and the extensive ecosystem. A vanishingly small fraction of users ever look at the implementation internals. Telling people "if you don't like it, switch to a different language" is particularly unhelpful because rewrites are rather famously expensive. Making things more complicated for the few…

Who is going to pay for maintaining the massively more complicated implementation though? Microsoft pulled their funding of the Python team, and even if they hadn't I think there's a danger in making Python so complicated that it can no longer be maintained without the backing of some giant corporation.

Re: Python JIT project was asked to pause development

#46

Post by dist-epoch »

There is a large graveyard of JITs and JIT-adjacent projects for Python.

By now it should be clear to anybody working on Python JIT that the probability of failure is 90%.

The future is probably rewriting performance critical Python code in Rust instead of trying to fix Python.

Or maybe a future LLM could add a JIT to Python in an effort-run.

Re: Python JIT project was asked to pause development

#47

Post by scott_w »

pjmlp wrote: post #41
scott_w wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, it’s a simple request to fully investigate the options before committing a massive piece of work to Python. We’ve seen bad implementations of things land before and now live forever. And frankly, if the team can’t pull together a strong maintenance plan, it can’t be allowed to remain in main.

So it will join PyPy and GraalPy in the corner. Python JIT history is full of drama, and no, Smalltalk, Common Lisp, Interlisp-D, SELF are just as dynamic if not more.

JIT in CPython has nothing to do with PyPy or GraalPy: it's its own thing. If they can't get a PEP accepted within 6 months then it's best that the code isn't weighing on the main codebase until an approach can be agreed, at which point work integrating it into main can restart. It's not an all-or-nothing situation.

Re: Python JIT project was asked to pause development

#48

Post by sitkack »

I have used Python as my main language since the late 90s and it has been over the last decade and half been getting more unserious.

It would be nice if cpython opened up a bit, pluggable GC and JIT would go along way towards reducing this manufactured drama.

It wasn't cool to see PyPy or Stackless getting sidelined.

Re: Python JIT project was asked to pause development

#49

Post by woodruffw »

sitkack wrote: post #48

I have used Python as my main language since the late 90s and it has been over the last decade and half been getting more unserious. It would be nice if cpython opened up a bit, pluggable GC and JIT would go along way towards reducing this manufactured drama. It wasn't cool to see PyPy or Stackless getting sidelined.

This isn't really a substantive comment, and to at least one extent it's trivially falsifiable (15 years is before Python 3 became usable, so that alone is a "serious" change in the language).

> pluggable GC and JIT would go along way

One of the points mentioned in the linked discussion is explicitly about ensuring that the JIT design enables multiple implementations.

Re: Python JIT project was asked to pause development

#50

Post by kzrdude »

questiuner wrote: post #29

Why was PyPy abandoned and not embraced by Python? NIH?

The short answer is that CPython didn't want to break compatibility with lots and lots and lots of Python modules implemented in C, so it was never viable to let PyPy seamlessly replace CPython.
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