Live data from Hacker News

Ask HN: Why is the HN crowd so anti-AI?

news.ycombinator.com

451–460 of 812 posts

Re: Ask HN: Why is the HN crowd so anti-AI?

#451

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The false equivalency in this explanation is off the scale. It wasn't just that crypto was an obvious grift; it was that you didn't need to be an experienced developer to confirm that 99% of the "web 3.0" nonsense that what was being thrown around literally made no technical sense. You might reject LLMs on principle, or find that they don't work for you. But I think we're well past any debate of whether they do anyth…

> It wasn't just that crypto was an obvious grift Was it universally obvious? Hindaight is 20/20 There were many block-chain startups funded, and even FAANG got caught up in the hype. FWIW, I was a crypto sceptic, but I had many arguments with believers online and in my social circles. Side note: a crypto enthusiast colleague bought a house off their crypto gains, it may be a grift, but a small number of crypto-belie…

> Was it universally obvious?

Yes. Crypto was never productive.

But nice that your buddy financed a house with other people's dumb money.

Re: Ask HN: Why is the HN crowd so anti-AI?

#452

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think thats really it. For me personally I am vaguely indifferent to programmers using LLMs to make more shitty code. My worry is the second and third order effects For work currently, as an SRE, I'm being asked to maintain and look after slop as if its properly built and instrumented. Our platform has clear rules and conventions, and AI isn't following those. For the wider world, I fucking hate that image/vi…

> I also worry about the debasement of value of human work. Looking at history, say of the weavers, it didn't work out to well for them when the powered loom came along. They eventually moved on to other things, because that was the only option. And the world is better with the power loom. It's scary but we still have to embrace that eventually pretty much all valuable labour will be automated, and by then our societ…

> They eventually moved on to other things, because that was the only option.

Yes, but then whole swathes of the English countryside (and then the Indian countryside) was plunged into destitution for generations and it took rebellions, massacres and revolutions to get something like comfortable living.

Re: Ask HN: Why is the HN crowd so anti-AI?

#453
If you enjoyed programming prior to LLM’s, like it was actually a fun thing for you to do, why would you use an LLM? You wouldn’t, it’s depressing.

Similar to an artist who enjoys drawing or painting, would they use an LLM? No, because they like doing that craft.

Would a programmer who loves programming use it to create marketing materials? Absolutely.

Re: Ask HN: Why is the HN crowd so anti-AI?

#454
post #14

It's simply divided. With every such division A vs. B, the A team thinks HN is anti-A and the B team thinks it's anti-B. This is an invariant. You can see from the following megathread, currently on the front page, that HN is by no means anti-AI: Ask HN: What was your "oh shit" moment with GenAI? - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48406174 . Sometimes it just takes the right initial condition (e.g. title) to brin…

Except on one side, it's apparently perfectly acceptable for folks to fulminate, make llm generation accusations, and brigade with minimal to no moderation attempts.

I'd need to see links to specific examples to say anything concrete, but from long experience I can say two general things with high confidence...

Edit: scratch that - I was going to link you to https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46018271 but it turns out you were the user I was replying to there! I don't suppose repeating it would help.

Re: Ask HN: Why is the HN crowd so anti-AI?

#455
post #454

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except on one side, it's apparently perfectly acceptable for folks to fulminate, make llm generation accusations, and brigade with minimal to no moderation attempts.

I'd need to see links to specific examples to say anything concrete, but from long experience I can say two general things with high confidence... Edit: scratch that - I was going to link you to https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46018271 but it turns out you were the user I was replying to there! I don't suppose repeating it would help.

[deleted]

Re: Ask HN: Why is the HN crowd so anti-AI?

#456
I'm just absolutely mystified by this attitude.

It suggests to me that you don't see really any of the potential rewards for excellence. It's almost exactly the same thing as saying "there's nothing left to invent." I've watched software change the world SO. MANY. TIMES. during my short-so-far life that I must call such a proposition as the death of creativity bull fucking shit. Using AI makes you less likely to create any LASTING contribution to the world, even as it makes you look very busy.

If you want to be the best, you do the fucking work and learn from it. There Is. No. Other. Way. There never will be.

Re: Ask HN: Why is the HN crowd so anti-AI?

#458
post #109
post #14

It's simply divided. With every such division A vs. B, the A team thinks HN is anti-A and the B team thinks it's anti-B. This is an invariant. You can see from the following megathread, currently on the front page, that HN is by no means anti-AI: Ask HN: What was your "oh shit" moment with GenAI? - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48406174 . Sometimes it just takes the right initial condition (e.g. title) to brin…

While I agree that it's "divided", I wouldn't say "simply". Mentioning AI brings out a sharply negative side of HN that I had not seen before 2023. It is the only subject where, when I have shared that I built something with it, I have gotten derogatory comments claiming I am inexperienced, unintelligent, and that the thing I built (a hobby project) is unimpressive or embarrassing. This has never happened in the deca…

I say "simply" because, as I mentioned, it's an invariant—possibly the most consistent phenomenon we've observed on HN [1].

But if it's so consistent, how can it go unnoticed for long (as you've reported) and/or get perceived as one-sided ("HN is so anti-A") when in fact it is usually two-sided ("HN users are divided on A")? The answer is that what you notice depends on how you feel [2]. If you like A, or (more precisely) if you dislike anti-A, you are far more likely to notice anti-A posts. Not only that, but you will weight them more heavily, meaning they make a stronger impression on you than the median post does—even the median pro-A post.

These two variables, frequency and impact, combine to produce a picture of the site as anti-A—so strongly that people often use universals like "always" and "never" when describing it. In reality, HN is a statistical cloud, but your pre-existing feelings determine which datapoints you happen to notice (frequency) and how strongly they affect you (impact). [3]

This is why people with opposing views feel the same about how biased HN is, but in opposite directions: A is certain that the site is anti-A, and B is just as certain that it's anti-B. Their feelings cause them to notice different datapoints. Abstract out the directional bit (pro- or anti-, A or B), and their perceptions become isomorphic.

Unfortunately for us, HN is more afflicted by this than other sites of comparable or larger size, because all of them organize the community into silos [4], meaning they're sharded by social group (like Twitter's follow lists), or by content (like Reddit's subreddits), and so on. HN is non-siloed, meaning everyone is in the same place: all the As, all the anti-As, all the Bs, all the anti-Bs - we're all roaming the same threads and bumping into each other. You are therefore more likely to run into datapoints you find disagreeable, and thus to feel that the community is biased against your view, and - what's worse - more biased the more strongly you feel!

Once or twice a year, some reply I'm writing gets hijacked by my sadness about this and turns into a digressive lament. Why sadness? because although I believe that in reality HN is somewhat (I believe this is why one so often hears about how toxic, nasty, negative HN is—not that it isn't those things! but the relative level of them gets distorted. Humans can't take much of what we dislike and disagree with before resorting to generalization and other internal barriers. This is essentially an immune response. It often takes only a handful of datapoints (3, or 2, or maybe even just 1) before the impression burns into the retina and becomes permanent [6].

This is most painful when the topic is close to one's heart—for example, when one's own work is being criticized. In cases like that, it doesn't take much before one feels wounded, and such impressions rarely go away.

In one case I saw, some people were agreeing about how terrible and mean Hacker News is, and to prove the point, one of them linked to a vile reply he had received. That reply, however, was from Twitter—not from HN at all! He hastened to add "HN is the same"—somewhat self-refutingly, since if it were true, an actual example would not have been hard to find. In reality, while such vile comments do show up on HN, the community quickly flags most of them, and moderators eventually flag most of the rest.

That is an example of the skew in perception I'm talking about, and even though it made me feel terrible, I can't be too critical because I understand where it comes from. It comes from fundamentals [7]: specifically, how HN's design interacts with human hard-wiring. Because those are fundamentals, this is not going to change, nor can it be affected by argument. Sad!

Or rather, it could only change if we changed the foundation of HN's design—in this case, by sharding the site into silos—but (a) I'd be scared to tamper with DNA at that level, and (b) if the above is correct, then it's good for the world that this place exists. It just can't expect to be perceived as such [5]. End of this season's lament.

[1] https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que...

[2] I don't mean "you" personally, of course—everyone does this. It's a double whammy of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negativity_bias and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clustering_illusion, sometimes described in this way: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hostile_media_effect.

[3] Lots of past explanation here if anyone wants it: https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que....

[4] https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que...

[5] I wrote a thing about this a few years ago, if anyone is interested: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23308098

[6] https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que...

[7] https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que...

Re: Ask HN: Why is the HN crowd so anti-AI?

#459

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"This didn't happen, except for that few times where it did happen and massively blew up in the media" That you fail to understand why those students took such great offense to what was said at those speeches doesn't make it "anti-AI bias". Those students reacted like that, and I used it as an example, because it's very emblematic of how tech companies and leading figures act.

I'm specifically saying that AI leaders didn't go around making pro-AI commencement speeches. At all. The absolute closest example is Schmidt, who was last CEO of Google more than a decade before ChatGPT launched, and is now CEO of an aerospace company. No other "AI leaders" gave commencement speeches where they were booed. So you're blatantly lying and spreading misinformation to feed a negative narrative about the…

For the record, besides Schmidt being booed, there was Gloria Caulfield (property development), and Scott Borchetta (music production). Then Jeremy Scott (fashion) tore up his AI-written speech and got cheered for that, and Ronny Chieng (The Daily Show) got cheered for saying "fuck AI" several times.

Re: Ask HN: Why is the HN crowd so anti-AI?

#460

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm specifically saying that AI leaders didn't go around making pro-AI commencement speeches. At all. The absolute closest example is Schmidt, who was last CEO of Google more than a decade before ChatGPT launched, and is now CEO of an aerospace company. No other "AI leaders" gave commencement speeches where they were booed. So you're blatantly lying and spreading misinformation to feed a negative narrative about the…

Quite recently, he was the chair of this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Security_Commission_o... Pretending he's some AI nobody is a bit goofy.

Quite recently? It ended in 2021, again, before ChatGPT and this latest boom. I doubt anyone today would hear “AI leaders” and think about Eric Schmidt, no disrespect to the man intended.
Post reply on HN