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Lee Kuan Yew's Singapore Story (2023)

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Re: Lee Kuan Yew's Singapore Story (2023)

#111

Post by filoleg »

Der_Einzige wrote: post #65
shellfishgene wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Over the following decades, Lee built a strong government that was backed by a competent and virtually corruption-free civil service..." This part of the history, only mentioned in this one sentence, is the most interesting and relevant for other countries, and is really what sets Singapore apart from other countries in the region.

The idea that Singapore isn't corrupt is one of the biggest lies of all time. https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c62m7xrd2z0o https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/oct/10/spanish-couple...

Ok, I will bite.

What does detaining someone over an unlawful (per the written law) protest have anything to do with corruption?

Corruption involves bribes, selective enforcement of the law, unethical favoritism when it comes to legal decisions, "favors", etc.

Your links just describe people participating in a protest that was against the law on the books, and then that law being enforced upon them. You can call that specific law unfair, undemocratic, authoritarian, etc., but what's the corruption angle here?

Re: Lee Kuan Yew's Singapore Story (2023)

#112

Post by [deleted] »

linksnapzz wrote: post #73
JadeNB wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Many people would feel safer in Lee Kwan Yew's Singapore than in the USA. Better housing and health policy, less graffiti and street violence. Of all the things wrong with the USA, when picking just two, it seems strange for one of them to be graffiti. I have lived in the USA all my life, in some more and some less urban areas, and even from the people most afraid of cities I have never heard graffiti mentioned as…

Did you know anyone who owned a building that had been tagged?

[deleted]

Re: Lee Kuan Yew's Singapore Story (2023)

#113

Post by BurningFrog »

teleforce wrote: post #48
wahern wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

By the time the Europeans arrived Singapore had long since declined: > However, by the time the Portuguese arrived in the early 16th century, Singapura had already become "great ruins" according to Alfonso de Albuquerque. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Singapore How far back and how much context is required for a simple narrative to not constitute lying? And for a narrative about national origin, is it not…

>Aboriginal peoples (pre-history "colonizers") What nonsense, colonizers do not live and settle there for thousand of years. Would you called majority Japanese now a colonizers since the originally come from Korea/China and before them they were people there? >Singapura had already become "great ruins" according to Alfonso de Albuquerque. Albuquerque was the first European colonial who conquered Malacca in the early…

Here is a piece of history trivia. Not trying to have an argument.

> they wanted to bypass what they considered "trading bottleneck" created by Ottoman

The Ottomans didn't exactly close the Silk Road, but they made it harder and more expensive to use it.

But the major reason for the maritime routes taking over the cargo traffic was that it's much more efficient to sail to Asia with your cargo than to walk it on camels.

So when the Portugese found the way around Africa and landed in Calcutta on May 20 1498, the trade patterns changed forever.

Re: Lee Kuan Yew's Singapore Story (2023)

#114

Post by boelboel »

mc32 wrote: post #4
ggm wrote: post #3

Weaponised the court system to repress union backed opposition, despite having been engaged with the union movement in his early years (as I understand it) It is a kind of workers paradise. If you're well behaved and don't shout you get a good education, health system and housing. 95% owner occupied is pretty damn good. Huge dependence on south Malaysia migrant workers shuttling over the bridge every day, so it's "ho…

Singapore, like other ex-Colonies in SEAsia prove that having been a colony is not an excuse for not doing well. HK, Singapore, Taiwan, South Korea were heavily colonized yet after emerging as independent states were able to overcome difficulties, educate their people, take what they learned from their colonizers and have become leading economies of the world. Governance is more important than one’s history when it c…

Most these countries had decent literacy and industry/proto-industrial base before WW2 or before becoming independent states. Singapore itself was richer than Spain in 1960 and one of the richest cities in its region despite the slums. This is why it makes no sense for example to compare China or India, they were just in a fundamentally different spot.

Regardless many of the strategies these countries used are increasingly difficult for low income countries to do as these countries (China is the biggest example) themselves are protective of these industries, there's no push for globalizing and as factories got increasingly automated.

That's not to say that I believe governance isn't important but the one's history is important for governance itself.

Re: Lee Kuan Yew's Singapore Story (2023)

#115

Post by jdw64 »

zuzululu wrote: post #104
jdw64 wrote: post #33

Lee Kuan Yew is praised by Western academia because of 'benevolent authoritarianism' — in other words, the idea that a small elite should rule over the workers. In fact, his policies were authoritarian and dictatorial. Despite Singapore's geographical advantages, Lee's achievement in transforming it into a great financial hub is certainly a testament to his capability. However, when you consider his track record 'Ope…

Lee Kuan Yew is heavily praised in Korea especially and the rest of Asia so I do not know how you came to generating your reply that he is a Western academic orientalist object comes from, that is certainly far from reality.

In Korea, Lee Kuan Yew is actually more often cited as a target of criticism. Of course, a small number of people praise him, but he is usually mentioned in the context of nostalgia for dictatorship (like Park Chung-hee in Korea), and more often than not, he is talked about as a kind of idealized image of dictatorship created by the West.

[1] https://www.ytn.co.kr/_ln/0104_201503231558059503

Re: Lee Kuan Yew's Singapore Story (2023)

#116

Post by jdw64 »

zuzululu wrote: post #104
jdw64 wrote: post #33

Lee Kuan Yew is praised by Western academia because of 'benevolent authoritarianism' — in other words, the idea that a small elite should rule over the workers. In fact, his policies were authoritarian and dictatorial. Despite Singapore's geographical advantages, Lee's achievement in transforming it into a great financial hub is certainly a testament to his capability. However, when you consider his track record 'Ope…

Lee Kuan Yew is heavily praised in Korea especially and the rest of Asia so I do not know how you came to generating your reply that he is a Western academic orientalist object comes from, that is certainly far from reality.

Rather, Korean academia and Korean media are generally more critical of Lee Kuan Yew compared to other countries, precisely because of the issue of dictatorship. The reason is simple: we experienced Park Chung-hee. Park Chung-hee receives overwhelming support in some parts of Korea. But fundamentally, academia does not glorify Park Chung-hee. This is because Korean political history emphasizes the flow of democracy. Korean conservatives tend to favor Park Chung-hee, while Korean progressives favor Kim Dae-jung. And since the debates between Kim Dae-jung and Lee Kuan Yew are often brought up, this leads to a more critical view of Lee Kuan Yew compared to other countries.

[1]https://news.kbs.co.kr/news/pc/view/view.do?ncd=5590151

[2]https://www.khan.co.kr/article/201503251135171

Re: Lee Kuan Yew's Singapore Story (2023)

#118

Post by quickthrowman »

mc32 wrote: post #108
mytailorisrich wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Singapore is an enclave that emerged because of multiculturalism in Malaya caused by mass immigration from China, actually.

In the 60s the Chinese diaspora in SEAsia experienced violence by locals who didn’t like the success of the Chinese. This happened mostly in Indonesia Burma and Malaysia and not so much in the Philippine islands. Malaysia in particular instituted pretty harsh laws to make Chinese suppress their Chinese identity and also curtailed their economic potential by implementing in practice expropriation and barring the Chine…

> In the 60s the Chinese diaspora in SEAsia experienced violence by locals who didn’t like the success of the Chinese.

I’m not super familiar with Chinese history, but this jumped out at me. How were other countries jealous of Chinese people during the decade of the Great Leap Forward and the Cultural Revolution? Famine, death, destruction, etc. Am I misunderstanding something?

Re: Lee Kuan Yew's Singapore Story (2023)

#120

Post by logicchains »

zuzululu wrote: post #103

I love Lee Kuan Yew and his story. He's revered not just in the West but East as well. Obviously people can't see past his style but they'll never tell you it wasn't effective. There is a lot to learn from his philosophy and there used to be countries that were on a similar track that also saw similar transformation from a backwater agrarian society deciding from marxism to market economy. His legacy speaks for itsel…

>His legacy speaks for itself

His legacy as a statesman is unparalleled, but his legacy as a parent falls short, given how poorly his son did at maintaining the country his father built. His father surrounded himself with smart people and welcomed criticism, while his son surrounded himself with yes-men and prosecuted critics. And now Singapore is becoming increasingly unappealing to MNCs due to recent discriminatory visa policies, and the rising cost of living is making life harder and harder for young people, with the fertility rate now under 0.9 as people can't afford to start a family.

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