I'm skeptical about efforts to revolutionize schooling • Hacker News Board

Re: I'm skeptical about efforts to revolutionize schooling

#391

Post by irishcoffee » Fri, Jun 05, 2026, 2:35 PM UTC

falkensmaize wrote: post #127

If your goal is high academic achievement, the only real answer is a stable home life, parent-enforced discipline and high parental expectations (note I said expectations not involvement - highly “involved” parents can be worse than the neglectful ones). That’s it. That’s the big secret. Show me a school full of tired/neglected/hungry/unruly students and I’ll show you a school full of students that are going to be al…

This should be the top comment.

It makes me _irate_ when the solution is "just throw more money at the problem, that will fix education!"

Like, irrationally mad. It is lazy. It is soulless. It is callous. It is arrogant. It is detached from reality.

"Education will fix the problems in schools!" is circular logic.

My pet theory, and this will bet destroyed here, is that we should have developed birth control for males a loonnngg time ago. Accidental kids that have dad peace out on them usually never get a fair shake at life.

Re: I'm skeptical about efforts to revolutionize schooling

#392

Post by freediddy » Fri, Jun 05, 2026, 2:42 PM UTC

There's only one real answer.

Give more money to schools and teachers so that classroom sizes are smaller and the children can be separated by learning ability and the lessons be catered towards them.

That's it.

Re: I'm skeptical about efforts to revolutionize schooling

#393

Post by simiones » Fri, Jun 05, 2026, 2:43 PM UTC

mapt wrote: post #383

simiones wrote: post #320

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I fully agree on phonics, but teaching Greek and Latin before any modern language? That seems deeply weird as an idea. Especially since Greek (by which I assume you mean Ancient Greek) is a pretty isolated language, with relatively little relation to any modern language except modern Greek. Another huge issue with Ancient Greek and Classical Latin is that they have extremely complex grammars compared to any modern Eu…

We had, spread over the course of our 8th grade English class (Thanks Ms Wilson), about 500 greek and roman roots to memorize, and weekly quizzes. These were not graded curricula, they were for extra credit because it was the teacher's personal program. No grammar, no conjunctions or conjugations, no sentence construction, just the two biggest veins that PIE has contributed to English nouns and verbs. Rote memorizati…

That sounds great, and very different from what GP said ("make French/Spanish/etc the second foreign language they learn after Latin&Greek").

Edit: I will still say that Greek has little relevance to common English vocabulary, though it is very relevant to almost every scholarly domain. The same is true to some extent for Latin - as the vast majority of non-scholarly Latin words in English are actually borrowed from French, and have (Old) French spelling and pronunciation, not Latin ones.

Re: I'm skeptical about efforts to revolutionize schooling

#394

Post by freediddy » Fri, Jun 05, 2026, 2:44 PM UTC

rustcleaner wrote: post #313

One revolution that backfired massively: the departure from phonics reading to some sort of contextual whole-word one, where students were reprimanded for trying to sound the word out. By extension the loss of basic Greek & Latin has had a terrible impact; at least teach just enough to learn that most English words are compounds of simpler Greek/Latin words strung together (like German's adjectiveadjectiveadjectiveno…

The whole-word learning "revolution" was based on a lie and misunderstood science. It set back a generation of kids and made them feel dumb because of a stupid group of educators.

Re: I'm skeptical about efforts to revolutionize schooling

#395

Post by aomix » Fri, Jun 05, 2026, 2:50 PM UTC

rustcleaner wrote: post #313

One revolution that backfired massively: the departure from phonics reading to some sort of contextual whole-word one, where students were reprimanded for trying to sound the word out. By extension the loss of basic Greek & Latin has had a terrible impact; at least teach just enough to learn that most English words are compounds of simpler Greek/Latin words strung together (like German's adjectiveadjectiveadjectiveno…

I credit randomly deciding to take Latin in high school as a huge change in the trajectory of my life. It didn’t even happen all at once. Just a little different perspective on how words are formed. Oh they’re often combination of simple root words.

Right after I graduated the one Latin teacher they had retired and that was it.

Re: I'm skeptical about efforts to revolutionize schooling

#396

Post by necovek » Fri, Jun 05, 2026, 2:50 PM UTC

bjourne wrote: post #275

necovek wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I never taught myself, so take this with a grain of salt (though I do think it is extremely hard to do well). I did, however, have a teacher who taught an advanced subject and I found his instruction so good that I did not have to bother with homework and assignments if I was happy with B grades — as I wasn't particularly motivated, only occassionaly did I put in the effort for an A. I could, however, see the level o…

> I did, however, have a teacher who taught an advanced subject and I found his instruction so good that I did not have to bother with homework and assignments if I was happy with B grades This comment made me roll my eyes. :) Giving students high grades for little effort is a cheat code for being considered a great teacher. Most everyone working in academia knows that.

Perhaps worth reading through the rest of the comment too? I had other teachers where it was easy to pass and get good grades (As even), but I did not call them out as good.

Before jumping to conclusions, maybe ask for context too? In particular, this was a high school for gifted math kids, and what I learned through regular classes let me pass math uni entrance exam in the top 10 (out of ~500 students) with no extra prep and even easily pass a couple of semesters of uni math with almost no prep (I took exams for two semesters after the first semester). My (lack of) working habits did catch up to me after that.

Also, for 4 years in two uni degrees, I did not get such a good teacher ever again, and there were a few who were easy to get great grades with.

Perhaps you can give some benefit of the doubt, though?

Re: I'm skeptical about efforts to revolutionize schooling

#397

Post by ChiperSoft » Fri, Jun 05, 2026, 2:50 PM UTC

rvrs wrote: post #212

ChiperSoft wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I don't think most kids are curious about the multiplication tables Which is exactly why they stopped teaching them in US curriculum under No Child Left Behind.

what? I started school in the early 2000s, after no child left behind started, and definitely learned multiplication tables lol

You're right, apparently this was a much more recent thing and california only. I just knew neither of my kids were taught them, so I assumed it happened longer ago.

https://www.thewellnews.com/opinions/california-removes-memo...

Re: I'm skeptical about efforts to revolutionize schooling

#398

Post by simiones » Fri, Jun 05, 2026, 2:51 PM UTC

ryanmcbride wrote: post #384

simiones wrote: post #320

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I fully agree on phonics, but teaching Greek and Latin before any modern language? That seems deeply weird as an idea. Especially since Greek (by which I assume you mean Ancient Greek) is a pretty isolated language, with relatively little relation to any modern language except modern Greek. Another huge issue with Ancient Greek and Classical Latin is that they have extremely complex grammars compared to any modern Eu…

I don't think they're talking about learning greek or latin before english, it sounds like they're talking about putting more time into learning etymology which is incredibly useful.

They said "Spanish/French/German/whatever should be the second foreign language they learn, gated behind Greek & Latin being their first.".

Re: I'm skeptical about efforts to revolutionize schooling

#399

Post by teovall » Fri, Jun 05, 2026, 2:57 PM UTC

What this article and the comments here miss, is that the current system is already working optimally for the people it benefits. That's why it hasn't improved and why it won't improve.

The ruling class doesn't want the general population to be well educated critical thinkers. They want them to have just enough education to perform exploitable labor and engage in unquestioning consumption. They want them easy to manipulate and control. They want their children away from home all day so more parents can work instead of staying home raising them.

It isn't some giant conspiracy. It's loosely coupled, powerful people, with aligned interests guiding decisions, influencing opinion, and swaying sentiment bit by bit over decades.

Re: I'm skeptical about efforts to revolutionize schooling

#400

Post by thinkingtoilet » Fri, Jun 05, 2026, 2:58 PM UTC

rustcleaner wrote: post #313

One revolution that backfired massively: the departure from phonics reading to some sort of contextual whole-word one, where students were reprimanded for trying to sound the word out. By extension the loss of basic Greek & Latin has had a terrible impact; at least teach just enough to learn that most English words are compounds of simpler Greek/Latin words strung together (like German's adjectiveadjectiveadjectiveno…

I believe this is something that is no longer done. On top of that, one of the early major proponents of it has admitted it was a failure, but I forget their name. The school my kids are at are not using this system. Obviously it's a data point of one, but I don't think most schools are doing this anymore.