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I'm skeptical about efforts to revolutionize schooling

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Re: I'm skeptical about efforts to revolutionize schooling

#321

Post by lnenad »

hiAndrewQuinn wrote: post #265

I'm surprised no one has mentioned Bryan Caplan's The Case Against Education yet, which basically argues for a revolution in the other direction - get rid of almost all schooling because almost none of it passes a sane cost benefit analysis. It's very well researched, and the author has a long track record of being happy when he moves people even marginally towards his views. The praise here for Direct Instruction is…

I cannot imagine coming to a place that has a reputation of having higher educated people, and presenting that education is a waste of time. All research has some levels of agenda behind it, and it would be very easy to steer anything the author presents into a direction he wishes. On the contrary, literally every country on earth benefited greatly from education and the results are very visible in all aspects of human development (HDI, GDP, pollution, literacy, etc...), most recently China, and even more recently India. Both had huge numbers of illiterate people, compared to both advancing at an incredible pace when a large emphasis was put on education.

Re: I'm skeptical about efforts to revolutionize schooling

#322

Post by rustcleaner »

SubmarineClub wrote: post #86
fasterik wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It turns out that when you level the playing field, girls do better than boys. I don't think it's about the "girl power" nonsense, it's about the ability to sit down, focus on something, and produce work that meets a certain standard of achievement. I would say the more harmful slogan has been "you're okay just the way you are." I'm not saying we go back to harsh discipline and abuse, but there has to be a middle gro…

> It turns out that when you level the playing field, girls do better than boys. Why is it that when boys/men where outperforming and out-earning women, people were willing to move heaven and earth to correct this terrible injustice, but now when outcomes have reversed (for years at this point) it's considered acceptable to say "Welp, that's just how it goes. Boys just aren't good enough." Hmmm...almost like, it's no…

Structural misandry. I'm telling you the Zoomer/Alpha boys have taken notice and are checking out of the system. Chickens coming home to roost in a few more decades as the West goes longhouse and gets economically pounded by the East. I was an early bird in MGTOW, but now it's common knowledge and operating strategy for most young men.

Boys don't owe society squat, and now they know it!

Re: I'm skeptical about efforts to revolutionize schooling

#323

Post by bluGill »

kitchi wrote: post #307
BobbyTables2 wrote: post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Problem is when one mixes kids who don’t want to be there with one’s that do, they all suffer. Makes a lot of teacher not want to be there too! The schools also have little interest in spending time and money on the higher performing students. They teach the minimum and focus resources on the failing ones to raise school averages. Currently, tertiary education is where a lot of real learning takes starts to happen.

> Currently, tertiary education is where a lot of real learning takes starts to happen. The phrase "real learning" is hard to define but I think I understand what you mean here, ie critical thinking. But this is only possible on the back of foundational literacy possible by years of primary education. > Problem is when one mixes kids who don’t want to be there with one’s that do, they all suffer. Kids that "don't wan…

> Kids that "don't want to be in school" need to be treated with care and shown the value of education.

I have yet to see a suggestion on how to do that, that isn't obviously unworkable.

> Not ejected out of the system to protect teachers.

It is not teachers I worry about, it is the other students. Peer pressure matters and so put kids who want to be there with kids that don't and some kids will decide they don't want to either. (the reverse is also true, but there is no way to know and I wouldn't risk my kids who like school in an area where many kids don't want to be there)

Re: I'm skeptical about efforts to revolutionize schooling

#324

Post by bluGill »

throwaway2037 wrote: post #203
BobbyTables2 wrote: post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Problem is when one mixes kids who don’t want to be there with one’s that do, they all suffer. Makes a lot of teacher not want to be there too! The schools also have little interest in spending time and money on the higher performing students. They teach the minimum and focus resources on the failing ones to raise school averages. Currently, tertiary education is where a lot of real learning takes starts to happen.

> Problem is when one mixes kids who don’t want to be there with one’s that do, they all suffer. At what age do you think kids should be able to leave school?

I don't like my options. I want all kids to like school and so be there from 6 - 26 (that is get a phd). Anything else is a failure, even if it makes some kids better to get rid of other kids, it makes those kids worse.

Re: I'm skeptical about efforts to revolutionize schooling

#325

Post by tuumi »

rsolva wrote: post #234
socalgal2 wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's also this: https://youtube.com/watch?v=g1ib43q3uXQ which claims data shows students being forced to "figure it out" is not the best way to learn. Most HNer disagree with this.

What they need to figure out is what topics peaks their interest. Kids need exposure to a broad spectrum early, get interested, and then have mentors that know how to run with it and harness that motivation. Later on these kids can tolerate learning more mundane, boring stuff if that brings them closer to a goal they have set for themself. But motivation has to come first!

Piques their interest. Sorry to be that guy.

Re: I'm skeptical about efforts to revolutionize schooling

#326

Post by bitmasher9 »

brian8620 wrote: post #317

With education, there's always someone trying to build a better mouse trap. When it comes down to it though, the basics still apply. In my opinion the single largest factor in education today (In this country) is the student's home environment. If the student isn't being set up for success at home, any attempts to re-vamp, redo, or otherwise modify the educational system that student learns from is doomed. If the stu…

I think a bad home environment will limit a students performance more than bad classroom instruction.

Bad decisions at the state level can hurt the academic performance for thousands and thousands of students.

Both are very bad problems that should be addressed.

Re: I'm skeptical about efforts to revolutionize schooling

#327

Post by ggm »

Nobody speaking up for rote learning but embedding core knowledge for recall has a role. Simply having recall that 1+1=2 and then inductance, not Bertrand Russel day #1.

Same with literacy. Depoliticised it needs phonics and whole-word. And a shit tonne better teacher pupil ratios and more pay for kinder and primary.

The Jesuits mantra is about "until 12" for a reason.

Re: I'm skeptical about efforts to revolutionize schooling

#328

Post by burnt-resistor »

rustcleaner wrote: post #313

One revolution that backfired massively: the departure from phonics reading to some sort of contextual whole-word one, where students were reprimanded for trying to sound the word out. By extension the loss of basic Greek & Latin has had a terrible impact; at least teach just enough to learn that most English words are compounds of simpler Greek/Latin words strung together (like German's adjectiveadjectiveadjectiveno…

Education boards and school districts in America keep making the same exact mistakes over and over again: throwing away proven methods casually for experimental fads.

This exact failure in 1960 California replacing phonics with whole word recognition led to backlash, including one teacher, Barbara Baker, who in 1963 formed Challenger Schools to emphasize phonics, academics starting in kindergarten, curiosity, and beyond minimum standards achievement/excellence.

Re: I'm skeptical about efforts to revolutionize schooling

#329

Post by burnt-resistor »

dash2 wrote: post #316
rustcleaner wrote: post #313

One revolution that backfired massively: the departure from phonics reading to some sort of contextual whole-word one, where students were reprimanded for trying to sound the word out. By extension the loss of basic Greek & Latin has had a terrible impact; at least teach just enough to learn that most English words are compounds of simpler Greek/Latin words strung together (like German's adjectiveadjectiveadjectiveno…

I think there's huge value to learning Latin, but that's because it was the core language of European civilization for millennia more than because it's a gateway to English. Ancient Greek is a very difficult language. It takes a solid decade of work to learn, and the payoff is you get to read a few - admittedly brilliant - authors. I would not automatically prefer that to being able to talk to everyone in the Spanish…

In a 1940 Massachusetts public school, my blue collar grandfather was required to take Latin, immersive French, and was graded on handwriting. Latin plus a foreign language like Mandarin, Hindi, or Spanish should be the table stakes minimum standard. English composition, creative writing, and reading classics should also be nonnegotiable essential requirements too.

Re: I'm skeptical about efforts to revolutionize schooling

#330

Post by brian8620 »

bitmasher9 wrote: post #326
brian8620 wrote: post #317

With education, there's always someone trying to build a better mouse trap. When it comes down to it though, the basics still apply. In my opinion the single largest factor in education today (In this country) is the student's home environment. If the student isn't being set up for success at home, any attempts to re-vamp, redo, or otherwise modify the educational system that student learns from is doomed. If the stu…

I think a bad home environment will limit a students performance more than bad classroom instruction. Bad decisions at the state level can hurt the academic performance for thousands and thousands of students. Both are very bad problems that should be addressed.

I absolutely agree. There are so many prongs to a complete education; mandates, curriculum changes, social and political injections, funding issues (particularly taxpayers needing to see a return on their educational investment), and so many more. One bad systemic decision can set off downward spirals in one, some, or all of these.
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