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I'm skeptical about efforts to revolutionize schooling

scotthyoung.com

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Re: I'm skeptical about efforts to revolutionize schooling

#301

Post by teiferer »

darkerside wrote: post #293
h317 wrote: post #222

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the challenge that teachers have is that being “interested “ in something is a skill in itself. I never played a clarinet when I was a kid, maybe I would have like it, but never did that. If we assume that being interested is a function of household income/structure/ happiness than things get even worse.

Teaching is a lot like (a certain style of) management. You learn what motivates someone, make the connection between that and the subject matter at hand, and make it accessible for them to get to the next level. The rest takes care of itself.

And a good manager understands the difference between obedience out of fear and internal motivation out of interest.

Re: I'm skeptical about efforts to revolutionize schooling

#302

Post by yuanBuilds »

annzabelle wrote: post #176
necovek wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I never taught myself, so take this with a grain of salt (though I do think it is extremely hard to do well). I did, however, have a teacher who taught an advanced subject and I found his instruction so good that I did not have to bother with homework and assignments if I was happy with B grades — as I wasn't particularly motivated, only occassionaly did I put in the effort for an A. I could, however, see the level o…

I was lucky to attend a liberal arts college with a large and extremely pedagogy focused mathematics department, and all of my math classes there were like this. Engaging lectures, if I listened and wrote down everything on the board I would be able to get a B on the exams, even if I skimped on practice. Made it all the way to measure theory this way. They included in class group practice integrated with the lectures…

I also went to a liberal arts college and, yes, my instructors care a lot about what I've learned. However, I am exactly that "asked educated question but sucked at homework and test" student. I usually got A or A- for first few assignments and just cannot finish any assignment near the end of the semester. The only exceptions are those "really hard and abstract" lessons where most of people got 70/100 for exams and I got 110/100 (literally).

I am 30 now and I realized that it was very much of ADHD symptoms. I am just an edge case of college education.

However, by genetics and mathematics we know that in every classroom, there are tons of “edge cases” from different perspectives.

Re: I'm skeptical about efforts to revolutionize schooling

#303

Post by fuzzfactor »

freeopinion wrote: post #10

IMO, the best questions around revolutionizing school should address whether children should be coerced into learning something. It seems obvious to me that the answer should be yes. So the follow ups should be figuring out how to move a student from an unwilling participant to a willing participant. I think about three strata of students. The stubbornly unwilling, the coaxable, and the eager. It is pretty easy to de…

>figuring out how to move a student from an unwilling participant to a willing participant.

I've been giving chemistry lessons since I was a teenager, and quite early this became my first order of business after that alone was responsible for turning a D student into a B student in one session.

For that first non-mathematically inclined student who was having so much trouble, this had to be accomplished before any of the specific concepts and problems could be properly addressed in the course they were enrolled in.

All that was accomplished in two hours was gradual but progressive reversal of attitude, not unlike what I was accustomed to in ramping up to more advanced subject matter, but we never got around to that during the first session.

The next week they had a very positive attitude and were going to call me later with some challenging equations for some help.

Wasn't necessary, the very next week they got a B on their own initiative, were so excited and passed everything after that with no further problems. It was probably the most thankful student I ever tutored.

Re: I'm skeptical about efforts to revolutionize schooling

#304

Post by doginasuit »

falkensmaize wrote: post #127

If your goal is high academic achievement, the only real answer is a stable home life, parent-enforced discipline and high parental expectations (note I said expectations not involvement - highly “involved” parents can be worse than the neglectful ones). That’s it. That’s the big secret. Show me a school full of tired/neglected/hungry/unruly students and I’ll show you a school full of students that are going to be al…

Parent-modeled discipline is arguably just as important. The strengths and struggles in a young person are quite often some analog of the strengths and struggles of their parents. Dealing with the distractions of life and focus on what is truly valuable is a respectable challenge at any age. The expectations and enforcement can be high, but if that is missing, kids are going to struggle and school is going to feel like pretend.

Re: I'm skeptical about efforts to revolutionize schooling

#305

Post by Vinnl »

gampleman wrote: post #250
Vinnl wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If we had budgets that allowed for one teacher per ten students, I imagine many problems in education would already be solved.

Plenty of places have relatively high teacher pay, relative high staffing (for instance 1 teacher + 1 assistant per 25 children is standard here - not quite 1/10 but pretty close). The educational outcomes are bad and getting worse.

Hmm that's fair, I forgot about the assistant; they're probably not that much cheaper than a teacher to be a significant budgetary difference.

Re: I'm skeptical about efforts to revolutionize schooling

#306

Post by fuzzfactor »

>I’m skeptical of dramatic proposals to make school considerably more effective or efficient for the average student.

Whther you're skeptical or not, lots of the things that are ideal for the average student, can be a disadvantage for the above average student.

Re: I'm skeptical about efforts to revolutionize schooling

#307

Post by kitchi »

BobbyTables2 wrote: post #167
kitchi wrote: post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Depending on what you mean by "school" I'd disagree. Voluntary tertiary education makes sense, not all chosen professions may need or benefit from a degree. But primary education needs to be a requirement for every child. Coming from a country with a large illiterate population, it's easy to see how hard their lives are compared to folks with an education but similar socio-economic backgrounds. Now obviously implemen…

Problem is when one mixes kids who don’t want to be there with one’s that do, they all suffer. Makes a lot of teacher not want to be there too! The schools also have little interest in spending time and money on the higher performing students. They teach the minimum and focus resources on the failing ones to raise school averages. Currently, tertiary education is where a lot of real learning takes starts to happen.

> Currently, tertiary education is where a lot of real learning takes starts to happen.

The phrase "real learning" is hard to define but I think I understand what you mean here, ie critical thinking. But this is only possible on the back of foundational literacy possible by years of primary education.

> Problem is when one mixes kids who don’t want to be there with one’s that do, they all suffer.

Kids that "don't want to be in school" need to be treated with care and shown the value of education. Not ejected out of the system to protect teachers. The kids might not want to be there for a variety of reasons, but if you've ever interacted with kids informally you'll know they are typically curious and eager to learn about the world around them.

And if they aren't the reasons need to be understood and the kids would ideally be provided the care they need, although there reality is far more complex.

This exception does not invalidate the basic premise of primary education, the benefits of which can be seen globally in pretty much every context.

Re: I'm skeptical about efforts to revolutionize schooling

#308

Post by b112 »

marcus_holmes wrote: post #87
b112 wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Indeed. Children and not "little adults". They are emotionally and intellectually immature, literally with the brain and body growing into to the capabilities of an adult. And if good habits are not instilled, they will have a difficult life ahead of them. It's far easier to learn those habits when young, than to try to independently course correct as an adult. Not coercing a child towards correct behaviours, is doin…

I think "coerce" is doing a lot of work here. There's a huge difference between a loving parent gently but firmly teaching their kid to clean their teeth every day even though they don't want to, and a brutal schoolteacher beating facts into a class full of miserable kids.

There is a difference. Yet that's the point. Because "beating facts" and "miserable kids" is not necessarily inferred from 'coerced', as opposed to 'gently but firmly', and that's why people are clarifying so.

There is in fact little difference between "you have to learn these things" and "brushing your teeth".

Re: I'm skeptical about efforts to revolutionize schooling

#309

Post by bluGill »

HDThoreaun wrote: post #200
bigstrat2003 wrote: post #194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some of those kids are lacking socially. It's not 100% by any means. The thing is that if you are home schooling your kids, you have to be intentional about socializing them in a way that you simply don't have to if you have them in a formal school setting. Obviously, some parents are going to fail at that but not all will.

Well the thing is if youre home schooling it's really easy to just never have your kid interact with someone they dont get along with. Thats the most important part of the socialization though. If you dont put effort into making your kids life a little uncomfortable Im not sure how theyll gain those skills.

More importantly someone you get along with even though they are a [Democrat, Catholic, or a long list of other groups that people have strong beliefs in]

Re: I'm skeptical about efforts to revolutionize schooling

#310

Post by fn-mote »

BobbyTables2 wrote: post #167
kitchi wrote: post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Depending on what you mean by "school" I'd disagree. Voluntary tertiary education makes sense, not all chosen professions may need or benefit from a degree. But primary education needs to be a requirement for every child. Coming from a country with a large illiterate population, it's easy to see how hard their lives are compared to folks with an education but similar socio-economic backgrounds. Now obviously implemen…

Problem is when one mixes kids who don’t want to be there with one’s that do, they all suffer. Makes a lot of teacher not want to be there too! The schools also have little interest in spending time and money on the higher performing students. They teach the minimum and focus resources on the failing ones to raise school averages. Currently, tertiary education is where a lot of real learning takes starts to happen.

> tertiary education is where a lot of real learning takes starts to happen

Hilarious assertion.

Absolutely false in my experience.

Someone who just starts to learn in college will be years behind the students who began in high school. They probably mistake it for not “being good at” a subject, but it can really keep people away from some areas. For example, hard sciences and math, where years of training problem solving skills makes solving new problems easy.

Not saying all primary/secondary education is good, but there is a massive gap between the good and the bad.

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