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What happens if Japan takes in zero immigrants?

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Re: What happens if Japan takes in zero immigrants?

#131

Post by Markoff »

justanotherjoe wrote: post #80
theturtlemoves wrote: post #63

You know, many eastern countries apparently intuitively think in cycles. The west tends to think linearly: "We're trending upwards, argh argh overpopulation, famine, death. We're trending downwards, argh argh population collapse, famine, death". Same with the perception of time. My country sees time as a line. I once had an interesting training where the instructor pointed this out. She went on to say that seeing tim…

Except in growth imperative system we have, to stop growing is not to not grow, it is to spiral into a cascade failure

you can still grow even with smaller richer more productive population, actually you are encouraged to be more productive with smaller population than vice versa

population growth ≠ wealth growth

Re: What happens if Japan takes in zero immigrants?

#132

Post by hagbard_c »

krapp wrote: post #19
indiandeodorant wrote: post #14

[flagged]

Man this thread is like catnip for racists.

Xenophobes, not racists. There is no race called 'muslim'. That this thread attracts comments from those who have migration-related problems high on their agenda is not that strange since it is dealing with the problems of the (absence of) migration. This subject has been polarised - not in the least by people calling anyone who does not agree a 'racist' - so some of the comments are extreme as well, viz. the grandparent comment about muslims and Indians.

Drop the knee-jerk 'muslims and indians are !"!"#%#¤', drop the 'racist! racist! racist!' and maybe, just maybe we can discuss the subject in a more productive manner. It does need discussing because neither 'close all the borders for anyone who does not look, speak, think or believe like me' nor 'open all the borders and welcome anyone who comes in' is a viable solution. Countries which do the former end up in the backwaters of history, those which do the latter end up as a footnote.

Re: What happens if Japan takes in zero immigrants?

#133

Post by Tor3 »

DrProtic wrote: post #127
Tor3 wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>They’ll find it easy to keep their homogenous culture and shared traditional values. That idea is a fallacy. It has never been true. All of Europe was always a melting pot for people from everywhere. Over the centuries people kept moving, immigrating and emigrating. England.. Britons, Celts, Anglo-Saxxon, Norse, Normans (which were themselves originally immigrants). And my own country? Surnames from everywhere. 40%…

You refer to a period where we had constant war in Europe? You literally posted an example of the opposite.

In what way? I included England just because those particular periods are well-known. If you look at ALL of Europe's history, all up to recent times, there's been constant movements and migrations. People with different backgrounds, moving around, a lot of movement came as trade increased (and, as it has lately been found, there was much more trade even 3k years ago than anyone had previously anticipated). If you look at a snapshot of time it looks pretty static, but let your time-tick be generations and you see constant changes.

Re: What happens if Japan takes in zero immigrants?

#134

Post by kmijyiyxfbklao »

malicka wrote: post #40
SV_BubbleTime wrote: post #4

They’ll find it easy to keep their homogenous culture and shared traditional values. Why would the solution to “our people aren’t having enough babies” be “we should import different people to have their babies here”? Why does ever single bleeding heart liberal globalist try and ignore the deep psychological truths about human tribalism? It’s not even a bad thing, but even if it was, it’s a fact.

> the deep psychological truths about human tribalism … that the races should keep to themselves? Yea, I’m going to have to disagree on this one. This was pretty handily disproven by the New World. Mixing, sharing, cohabiting… this creates culture and makes us stronger. Isolation, protectionism, and fear makes us weak.

How was it disproven by the New World? The countries that mixed (Latin America) are weaker than the country that didn't (USA)

Re: What happens if Japan takes in zero immigrants?

#135

Post by Markoff »

outside1234 wrote: post #11
jojobas wrote: post #8

Whatever the answer to people having fewer kids is, it's not "cede your land to some other people who will". Japan's population around 1900 was mere 43 million people - when most of them were required to work the fields. Japan will be fine. Europe, on the other hand...

This will be easy to say up until there isn’t enough money for retired folks.

that's already solved problem, just no country had balls to completely abolish PAYGO (Chile was closest, but they backpedaled a bit) and rely on IRA

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pensions_in_Chile

Re: What happens if Japan takes in zero immigrants?

#136

Post by Tor3 »

kmijyiyxfbklao wrote: post #130
Tor3 wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It only looks like that because you're looking over a relatively short timeframe. Start looking over more than a generation and things will look different. I just have to check my father's ancestry research to see that - his notes includes a lot of extra information not directly related to my forefathers, and yes people moved. That a lot of people move in, historically, an instant, is something that doesn't happen al…

How is 1500 years ago a short time frame? Yeah, people moved, but how many people in what amount of time is important. And places become more boring if the have the same migrants as every other place, not less boring.

I didn't say that 1500 years ago is a short timeframe. I'm saying that if you look at short timeframes like a decade or a generation or two it may look like there's not much migration going on. But stretch that a bit, and you'll see the changes. It's like a slow-moving river. Always moving, if you yourself move your viewpoint back a little.

Re: What happens if Japan takes in zero immigrants?

#139

Post by happytoexplain »

cwyers wrote: post #58

I am really shocked at the tone of so many of the comments here. Did HN become a breeding ground for xenophobia at some point? Has it always been that and is it just way more mask off now?

A few of the comments in question have a bad tone - but most of them are reasonable opinions about valuing one's people, culturally or socially, or about the effectiveness of immigration.

Re: What happens if Japan takes in zero immigrants?

#140

Post by pandaman »

porkloin wrote: post #95
SV_BubbleTime wrote: post #4

They’ll find it easy to keep their homogenous culture and shared traditional values. Why would the solution to “our people aren’t having enough babies” be “we should import different people to have their babies here”? Why does ever single bleeding heart liberal globalist try and ignore the deep psychological truths about human tribalism? It’s not even a bad thing, but even if it was, it’s a fact.

The idea that Japan is a uniquely "homogeneous culture" is honestly a modern construct anyway. Japanese culture and language has been enormously influenced by colonial and migrant presence in the country, from Chinese to Dutch to British to American, and a zillion others. Just look at the language! I don't have the exact figure in front of me, but I remember when taking Japanese language courses that something like 3…

I think you are confusing "homogeneous" with "indigenous". With the common meaning of "homogeneous" your entire post is a non sequitur. There are many different words ending with "-geneous" meaning entirely different things, you need to look at what goes before the "-genous" part.
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