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C++: The Documentary

herbsutter.com

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Re: C++: The Documentary

#111
I love a free documentary about something that I'm passionate about. So many thanks.

However, I'm a my own kind of weird. I cannot watch a documentary that's made out of people saying short sentences. I get that it's made to 'have them tell the story', but I need a narrator to tell me what to think because I get distracted.

Still lots of love to the creators, of course.

Re: C++: The Documentary

#112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If this is a rhetorical question I genuinely don't know what's the implied answer. Why would AI specifically make C++ grow?

A few reasons: 1. Header files make C++ verbose. Header files are well within LLM's ability 2. LLMs can handle setting up cmake for you 3. C++ is very well documented relative to (most) newer languages 4. LLMs can port modern features like websockets and build API wrappers easily, reducing the disadvantage against web (since most documentation is for JS/python/go) Coding languages have been developing for speed of (m…

All of those seem like barriers that make C++ unappealing in general, but you're deciding to overcome the barriers using an LLM and seeing that as a strength somehow?

Re: C++: The Documentary

#114

My only problem with C++ is that it’s too verbose. my eyes need to parse huuge chunks of things when I just want some convenient syntax for it. otherwise the idioms are pretty universal for most programming languages nowadays.

Try Java

hard pass :D

isn't kotlin supposed to be the future for JVM?

Re: C++: The Documentary

#115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

C+ Standard Template Library is the best designed part of C++ library. It was designed by Alexander Stepanov. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_Stepanov

So, a few things (aside from the whole nomenclature argument already in another reply) 1. Stepanov's generic programming is a good idea. Every language you've seen with "generics" that's his idea, to the extent "The STL" is generic programming, everybody agreed it's a good idea. 2. But the STL is very old now, so while the idea is good, this is one of the oldest (Stepanov had tried this in other languages before C++)…

I would argue that even the basic concept behind STL is misguided. The rationale I often see is "you only need N algorithms for M container type, instead of N*M". This ignores the fact that algorithms and data structures are not independent of each other, and also that most of the time these days you're operating on vectors, so M ~= 1.

Case in point: list::sort. You don't want to try running quicksort on a linked list. Or remove_if: great we've abstracted the difficult task of removing things without erasing them, except we can't do it on maps. (C++20 seems to add an erase_if, apparently admitting that the two-step remove/erase is silly).

Then there's the fact that C++ iterators are basically pointers into the data structure, where for vectors (your common case) you'd do much better with index/container pairs, both for stability and bounds checking.

Re: C++: The Documentary

#116
post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I find C++ not hard at all when working with familiar idioms, restrictions and toolings (familiar to me). But it's hard jumping into new codebases and adjusting yourself to new patterns. Recently I did a lot of programming using C++23 Modules and it was a breeze. There's basically dozens of very nice languages inside C++. That can be a blessing or a curse. I'm anxious for Herb Sutter's CPP2/CPPFront to become a stand…

What type of project actually uses C++ 23 modules in real life? What kind of toolchain enables that? When I worked on Chromium, they were indefinitely in the "maybe in 5-10 years the tooling will be ready" camp.

The tooling people have - as of about a year ago said they are ready. Now everyone who considers themselves early adopters is using then. Most are waiting for the early adopters to figure out what the best practices are so we don't make a mess

Re: C++: The Documentary

#117

My only problem with C++ is that it’s too verbose. my eyes need to parse huuge chunks of things when I just want some convenient syntax for it. otherwise the idioms are pretty universal for most programming languages nowadays.

C++ is quite amenable to making things less verbose. For example: Instead of a standard library algorithm taking a pair of iterators, you could have a function taking a container and calling the other function with its start() and end(). And then, with newer versions of the language, you can use a ranges-based function. There are lots of such syntactic hacks, from `using` through typed literals all the way to preprocessor macros (which we want to avoid, but are still there).

That's how you emulate language features that aren't there originally. I've "impelemented" a static code block, like in Java:

https://stackoverflow.com/a/34321324/1593077

and that's all in C++98. The implementation is a bit ugly but the use is terse and self-expalantory.

Re: C++: The Documentary

#118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There's a single "I guess I would use this" container type, std::vector. About that one... I would claim that in a majority of cases where an std::vector is used, what the author really wanted was a similar type, but whose size and capacity are fixed on construction and never change. The standard C++ library does not offer such a type - so people use vector because it's handy. Agree with your takes on most of the c…

What operations could such frozen vector offer that std::vector does not? If there are none, it doesn't need a separate data structure.

Oh, on the contrary, the separate structure is needed and useful because it offers _less_, not more:

* APIs/function signatures explain more clearly what are the intended uses of the structure that's passed.

* More potential for compiler optimization

* Some potential for having these on the stack (if the compiler deduces the size already at compile-time)

* More convenient for static analysis

* No plethora of confusing constructors (including the infernal two-element ctors which can be misinterpreted super-easily)

etc.

Re: C++: The Documentary

#119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's your opinion, others won't agree and would much rather not pay the price at all.

Those asserts probably saved a lot of development costs and increased the robustness of the software, which is worth a lot more than a few percent on a benchmark. I personally am more conservative on those things. I'll pick the fastest thing that is reliable.

Are we talking about games or medical devices here? I expect different things from them. If a medical device needs to turn off bounds checking to get results I'm concerned enough to not want to let anyone use it. If a game can get a slight performance improvement I'm all for it, who cares if it crashes, it is just a game.

Re: C++: The Documentary

#120
post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Usually poorly. On the contrary. You can focus exactly on the features the higher level game code needs. The C++ stdlib is (for the most part) poorly designed, usually poorly implemented, the main reason for slow build times, and its complexity explodes because it needs to consider all edge cases that most code bases don't ever trigger. A specialized dynamic array class in a few hundred lines (at most!) and with ju…

Yes I don't disagree that sometimes a specific container or a data structure is great for the problem. Problem is that most of the game code and related code (so tooling,editor, auxiliary engine code) does need a typical STL type functionality and then when the org has "omg no STL" blanket rule someone ends up implementing STL and that's almost always worse than the STL that ships with the tool chain. Even worse..it'…

Top tier game orgs are often large enough to have good people write their own library with the correct compromises. They also tend to need micro performance improvements enough to be worth it.

Most of the rest of us STL is good enough.

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