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I'm skeptical about efforts to revolutionize schooling

scotthyoung.com

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Re: I'm skeptical about efforts to revolutionize schooling

#211

Post by bruce511 »

WalterBright wrote: post #106
marcus_holmes wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But that's basic arithmetic, and we have calculators to do that. Totally agree that understanding the problem and being able to frame a solution are also needed, but again, that's not hard maths. I think we're more talking about algebra or, really, anything "higher" in maths than arithmetic. Does a solid knowledge of, e,g, Set Theory, give any benefit later in life? And also, if we think that basic financial manageme…

A calculator won't help at all if you don't have a grasp on what compound interest is. I've seen many laments on X from graduates who could not understand why they've paid more money to their student loan lender than the amount of the loan, and still have a balance that was more than the loan amount. These are college graduates . > Does a solid knowledge of, e,g, Set Theory, give any benefit later in life? Knowledge…

An excellent example that shows the value of understanding very basic geometry.

I'll add that math isn't really just about that sort of practicality though. It's also about a fundamental understanding of numbers and what they mean.

For example, inflation is in the news a lot. It's high, or low. Most people (the US president included) think that if inflation was 0% prices would come down. But that'd be a profound misunderstanding of the topic.

A grounding in numbers, in this case percentages, makes for a better understanding.

Any business owner needs to know fundamental truths to survive. Cost price, markup, margin, selling price, fixed expenses versus variable expenses and so on. All are grounded in basic math. Without that you can't do basic accounting. Without that you can't effectively run a business.

Anti-vax arguments are built on very bad math, and people bad at math fall for it.

We all use math all the time. People bad at math are at a major disadvantage. Populations bad at math are easily manipulated.

Re: I'm skeptical about efforts to revolutionize schooling

#212

Post by rvrs »

ChiperSoft wrote: post #137
anon-3988 wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I have a real issue dividing kids up along these lines. I've found that virtually all young kids love to explore and learn things, and if anything schooling can extinguish this innate desire when it becomes a source of stress. This is a very bold claim. I don't think most kids are curious about the multiplication tables

> I don't think most kids are curious about the multiplication tables Which is exactly why they stopped teaching them in US curriculum under No Child Left Behind.

what? I started school in the early 2000s, after no child left behind started, and definitely learned multiplication tables lol

Re: I'm skeptical about efforts to revolutionize schooling

#213

Post by geysersam »

wagwang wrote: post #207

The obvious low hanging fruit is that most Americans just need less school and should skip straight into vocational training which can start as early as 15-16. These kids don't need to ever be even close to calculus or physics. There's an epidemic of overly educated people and it's a tremendous waste of resources and broken expectations. Just follow the people who invented kindergarten :))

I think kids have a right to be exposed to these ideas. Stratifying society even further, only exposing select sections of the population to advanced ideas in philosophy or science, will not help build a solid democratic society.

Re: I'm skeptical about efforts to revolutionize schooling

#214

Post by wagwang »

geysersam wrote: post #213
wagwang wrote: post #207

The obvious low hanging fruit is that most Americans just need less school and should skip straight into vocational training which can start as early as 15-16. These kids don't need to ever be even close to calculus or physics. There's an epidemic of overly educated people and it's a tremendous waste of resources and broken expectations. Just follow the people who invented kindergarten :))

I think kids have a right to be exposed to these ideas. Stratifying society even further, only exposing select sections of the population to advanced ideas in philosophy or science, will not help build a solid democratic society.

Works very well in Germany. Devastating student loans is contributing way more to the stratification of society.

Re: I'm skeptical about efforts to revolutionize schooling

#215

Post by vkazanov »

limagnolia wrote: post #121
gamerDude wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In a way, I think coercion is a requirement to be ethical. Ethics is determined based on what current society believes to be the right thing to do. We see that there are a variety of different cultures and ethics around the world, which would indicate that humans wouldn't just automatically follow a universal set of rules. Thus to be ethical in your society, usually means you must follow the rules determined by a col…

But there is a difference in behaving ethically and behaving legally. While there may be consequences for behaving unethically (IE "I won't do business with them because I do not feel they are ethical"), society generally only overtly punishes those who do things that are illegal.

It is the other way around.

White collar crime might be illegal but most societies would definitely punish a murderer either legally or illegaly. Social stigma is a MUCH more serious thing than legality of action.

Re: I'm skeptical about efforts to revolutionize schooling

#216

Post by PeterSchatz03 »

I think this is the part that often gets underestimated: school reform has to work with average teachers, average constraints, and students who may not be motivated in the first place. A model that only works when the teacher is unusually gifted is probably more of an inspiring example than a scalable system.

Re: I'm skeptical about efforts to revolutionize schooling

#217

Post by cheesecakegood »

freeopinion wrote: post #91
WalterBright wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Washington schools constantly ask for more money so they can teach. I don't see what monetary resources are needed to teach arithmetic beyond a blackboard and chalk. Projectors, videos, computers, tablets, calculators, are all completely useless in teaching math.

Walter, I have a great deal of respect for you. Your math skills are much greater than my own. But you have stretched your statement too far. Flash cards can be very helpful in teaching math. Timed tests for math facts can be very helpful. Both of these can be facilitated with computers or tablets. Animations can be a very useful instructional tool. Even taking a picture of the chalk on the blackboard and putting it…

All good examples but all relatively low cost as well (and don’t require 1:1 student-laptops). However I’m pretty darn sure that videos do more harm than good - too easy to zone out during them, and providing them to students only allows them to slack in class with the attitude “I can just watch the video again later.” Despite being horribly inefficient this is true for students of virtually all ages. Providing videos to those who ask only might help.

The real problem beyond all this is that the educational spending goes to the wrong spots. If you ask me, teachers should be empowered to select their own curriculum using a budget and most of the rest of the money should go towards paid tutors, better teacher-student ratios, etc (and probably way fewer administrators). I am firmly convinced that a lot of kids act out because they can’t grasp the material, not in spite of it.

Re: I'm skeptical about efforts to revolutionize schooling

#218

Post by teiferer »

tombert wrote: post #70

I'm not the first person to state this, but it bears repeating: nearly everyone thinks that they know the right way to teach, and most people don't. I'm not exempting myself from this. I was an adjunct lecturer for two semesters. I did have some fun with it, but it was way harder than I thought it would be, and I think that university is probably considerably easier than elementary or high school. I had students that…

> teach someone who really isn't interested in learning.

This is key. If you are interested in a subject, the learning will come more or less automatically. Different ways of teaching still have substantial impact on how efficiently you learn, but you automatically gravitate towards the more efficient methods since you want to learn this out of interest in the subject. Without interest, this is an uphill battle.

And that is the gripe with traditional schooling. The methods may work well for intetested students, but they really kill interest. If I'm evaluated all the time, pressure on me, my interest tanks.

The difference between something I have to do versus something I want to do is absolutely key.

Re: I'm skeptical about efforts to revolutionize schooling

#220

Post by whiplash451 »

teiferer wrote: post #218
tombert wrote: post #70

I'm not the first person to state this, but it bears repeating: nearly everyone thinks that they know the right way to teach, and most people don't. I'm not exempting myself from this. I was an adjunct lecturer for two semesters. I did have some fun with it, but it was way harder than I thought it would be, and I think that university is probably considerably easier than elementary or high school. I had students that…

> teach someone who really isn't interested in learning. This is key. If you are interested in a subject, the learning will come more or less automatically. Different ways of teaching still have substantial impact on how efficiently you learn, but you automatically gravitate towards the more efficient methods since you want to learn this out of interest in the subject. Without interest, this is an uphill battle. And…

To a large extent, the onus is on the teacher to generate interest. Most teaching until uni is mostly forced upon students.
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