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I'm skeptical about efforts to revolutionize schooling

scotthyoung.com

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Re: I'm skeptical about efforts to revolutionize schooling

#121

Post by limagnolia »

gamerDude wrote: post #26
singpolyma3 wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree this is the fundamental question and disagreement. I certainly don't think coercion is ethical.

In a way, I think coercion is a requirement to be ethical. Ethics is determined based on what current society believes to be the right thing to do. We see that there are a variety of different cultures and ethics around the world, which would indicate that humans wouldn't just automatically follow a universal set of rules. Thus to be ethical in your society, usually means you must follow the rules determined by a col…

But there is a difference in behaving ethically and behaving legally. While there may be consequences for behaving unethically (IE "I won't do business with them because I do not feel they are ethical"), society generally only overtly punishes those who do things that are illegal.

Re: I'm skeptical about efforts to revolutionize schooling

#122

Post by nhinck2 »

fhe wrote: post #110
tombert wrote: post #70

I'm not the first person to state this, but it bears repeating: nearly everyone thinks that they know the right way to teach, and most people don't. I'm not exempting myself from this. I was an adjunct lecturer for two semesters. I did have some fun with it, but it was way harder than I thought it would be, and I think that university is probably considerably easier than elementary or high school. I had students that…

based on your description, one reasonable way to 'revolutionize' school might simply allow people (who don't want to be there) to leave.

There has been a shift towards too many jobs requiring a tertiary education.

But good luck reversing that trend.

Re: I'm skeptical about efforts to revolutionize schooling

#123

Post by limagnolia »

protonbob wrote: post #12
singpolyma3 wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree this is the fundamental question and disagreement. I certainly don't think coercion is ethical.

Why not?

Not the poster to whom you are questioning, but I would argue that inspiring and encouraging are much better than coercing, especially if the goal is to educate, as I am skeptical that coercion is ever going to work to get true learning.

Re: I'm skeptical about efforts to revolutionize schooling

#124

Post by shimman »

fraserphysics wrote: post #111
tombert wrote: post #70

I'm not the first person to state this, but it bears repeating: nearly everyone thinks that they know the right way to teach, and most people don't. I'm not exempting myself from this. I was an adjunct lecturer for two semesters. I did have some fun with it, but it was way harder than I thought it would be, and I think that university is probably considerably easier than elementary or high school. I had students that…

I signed up for software carpentry instructor training at the SciPy conference in 2015. I expected to learn about their curriculum. Instead, I found that they taught pedagogy. There were articles to read in advance. I should have taken that class before I spent 15 years teaching at university rather than afterwards.

What aspects of pedagogy did you find most relevant? It does seem sad that in our industry, one where practical learning is necessary, that learning how to learn isn't really taught well. Often the worse ways to learn are those that seemed to be encouraged, mostly because it's the easiest way to monetize content.

Re: I'm skeptical about efforts to revolutionize schooling

#125

Post by komali2 »

parpfish wrote: post #61
fasterik wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not that the system favors a particular gender. The system favors personality traits like self-regulation, organization, and conscientiousness. These traits develop earlier on average in girls than in boys.

i'm not sure if it's an issue of the educational system, but for at least several decades there has been a societal push to correct historical gender imbalances by encouraging girls to do well in school, go to college (especially STEM), get a career. This has resulted in kids seeing a lot of messaging along the lines of "Girl Power! Girls can do anything!". Which to an adult looks like a shift in the tides of history…

> This has resulted in kids seeing a lot of messaging along the lines of "Girl Power! Girls can do anything!". Which to an adult looks like a shift in the tides of history, but for one of the kids that's all they've ever seen

This feels too vibes-based. I never saw messaging like this when I was a teacher, nor when I visited the schools my mom taught at, nor when I visited schools to help with kid hackathons. This would be in California, Texas, the PRC, Japan, and Taiwan. Mostly I saw little nonsense alphabet stickers, famous buildings, chemical symbols, or like, comically diverse but in the end harmless bits of bric a brac like an astronaut in a wheelchair.

What specifically have you been seeing that would lead you to think boys in schools are being held back by messaging?

Re: I'm skeptical about efforts to revolutionize schooling

#126

Post by Xeoncross »

I would rather my kid was in a group of 10 students than 30. I remember very little time actually left for a teacher to help an individual child with all the kids to manage. Most people are scared to watch three kids at a time.

I'll take 1-on-1 mentoring over better computers, books, clubs, sports, or anything else the budget is spent on.

Please hire more teachers.

Re: I'm skeptical about efforts to revolutionize schooling

#127

Post by falkensmaize »

If your goal is high academic achievement, the only real answer is a stable home life, parent-enforced discipline and high parental expectations (note I said expectations not involvement - highly “involved” parents can be worse than the neglectful ones). That’s it. That’s the big secret. Show me a school full of tired/neglected/hungry/unruly students and I’ll show you a school full of students that are going to be almost impossible to teach effectively. There will be exceptions of course, but kids who aren’t parented properly at home will struggle massively to learn at school.

You can throw all the money, new techniques and technology you want to at the problem. It will not get better without fixing that fundamental issue.

Re: I'm skeptical about efforts to revolutionize schooling

#128

Post by Natsu »

wdutch wrote: post #80
Natsu wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a huge difference between things people are forced to learn and stuff they want to learn. Life does tend to make you learn a few things by force, but that can also kill off one's taste for a subject. Conversely, I remember mom giving me M&Ms for getting math flash cards right as a small kid. For some reason, I always liked math...

As a math teacher myself I want to say... A parent taking an interest and spending some quality time with their child over a subject can have a huge impact on their motivation to learn. Props to your mom.

She was an elementary school teacher herself.

Re: I'm skeptical about efforts to revolutionize schooling

#129

Post by j45 »

tombert wrote: post #70

I'm not the first person to state this, but it bears repeating: nearly everyone thinks that they know the right way to teach, and most people don't. I'm not exempting myself from this. I was an adjunct lecturer for two semesters. I did have some fun with it, but it was way harder than I thought it would be, and I think that university is probably considerably easier than elementary or high school. I had students that…

How to teach isn't always aligned with how to learn.

How children learn is not how adults learn.

Re: I'm skeptical about efforts to revolutionize schooling

#130

Post by shermantanktop »

singpolyma3 wrote: post #13
shermantanktop wrote: post #6

I've long held the belief that well-meaning adults who complain about "school these days" are mostly just talking about their own educational experience - either to complain about how they felt about it as a child (20+ years ago) or to elevate their nostalgia over whatever they imagine happens in classrooms now. Educational professionals appear terminally prone to fads and magical thinking, but it's the people outsid…

Yes of course I don't actually hate what school is now. Not directly. How could I, I'm not even allowed to observe it! But I definitely hated what I had to do and it did not work for me. And that is useful information when I'm helping my kids.

You say you can’t know something, and then assert that the dated knowledge you do have is still relevant.

If it wasn’t actually useful information, how would you know? How would you discover that?

As you say, it’s a bit of a black box unless you volunteer in the classroom (as my spouse did).

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