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Failing grades soar with AI usage, dwindling math skills in Berkeley CS classes

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Re: Failing grades soar with AI usage, dwindling math skills in Berkeley CS classes

#441

Post by Georgelemental »

j-bos wrote: post #278
frollogaston wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Berkeley chancellor told students to vote for 2020 California Proposition 16, which would've repeated 1996 Proposition 209 that banned race-based admission in public universities. Prop 16 failed. Subsequently, Cal started ignoring SAT/ACT scores. I have to think this was their alternative way of taking fewer Asian students, who average highest on that. Soon after I got an email from the same chancellor praising the c…

Reminds me of this asian professor getting blocked for promotion, allegedly, on the basis of race, but in a roundabout way. https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/professor-sues-texas-unive...

Yes, they falsely classified him as white in order to deny him the promotion (because discriminating against white people is 100% non-controversial in that environment)

Re: Failing grades soar with AI usage, dwindling math skills in Berkeley CS classes

#442

Post by tstrimple »

boringg wrote: post #421
rybosworld wrote: post #419

If you watch old videos of tradesmen using basic hand tools like hammers, you'll find examples of skill/dexterity with the tool that I think don't exist today at all except maybe in communities like the Amish. I think it's true that we collectively lose something akin to beauty every time technology advances. But usually some new set of skills that have beauty emerge. If LLMs end up being the pneumatic nail gun for t…

I mean the argument that is being put forward is that it isn't a pneumatic nail gun for the human mind - it atrophies are mathematical capability and quality of understanding.

You are less of a human for not starting all of your fires using friction from rubbing two sticks together. People who use lighters are destroying their ability to start fires without lighters and that is a very serious problem!

Re: Failing grades soar with AI usage, dwindling math skills in Berkeley CS classes

#443

Post by jplusequalt »

olpad wrote: post #329
TaupeRanger wrote: post #306

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When left to their own devices, 99% of children are not interested enough in math, history, literature, languages, or almost any other school subject to engage with it willingly. Only teaching "interesting" things that kids are "interested" in is both impossible (too many varied kids per class for that to work 100% of the time) and even if possible, would leave kids with zero practical knowledge, because learning mos…

I’m not saying only teach interesting things, I’m saying teach things in an interesting and engaging way so that kids don’t feel the need to cheat their way through it to just get it done. College is a different dynamic from a middle/high school classroom, but I don’t remember 95% of the material from my college engineering classes anyway, it’s the problem solving and information finding that I’ve retained and have h…

>I’m not saying only teach interesting things, I’m saying teach things in an interesting and engaging way so that kids don’t feel the need to cheat their way through it to just get it done.

"Just do it right and it won't be a problem." This is not an actionable plan. What is engaging? Who gets to decide that? The teacher? The students? The parents? How do deal with certain kids finding different approaches more or less engaging? How do you expect a teacher to curtail their teaching approach to dozens of children at the same time?

Re: Failing grades soar with AI usage, dwindling math skills in Berkeley CS classes

#444

Post by Jtarii »

rybosworld wrote: post #419

If you watch old videos of tradesmen using basic hand tools like hammers, you'll find examples of skill/dexterity with the tool that I think don't exist today at all except maybe in communities like the Amish. I think it's true that we collectively lose something akin to beauty every time technology advances. But usually some new set of skills that have beauty emerge. If LLMs end up being the pneumatic nail gun for t…

It seems pretty clear that LLMs are going to be extremely corrosive to culture in general.

Re: Failing grades soar with AI usage, dwindling math skills in Berkeley CS classes

#445

Post by everforward »

conductr wrote: post #140
camelmel wrote: post #35

I have some sympathy for these kids. If LLMs were around when I was a student, I would've also used them to "speed up" my homework assignments then proceed to fail all my tests. Now I work mostly with PhDs who were at the top of every academic environment they've ever been in. And yet I can see their thinking skills rapidly declining as well; many of them can no longer brainstorm, code, think deeply, or write without…

I’m not noticing the decline in my own abilities any more than I had before using them. I finished undergrad 20 years ago and my once sharp math skills had been severely diminished within only 5-10 years. Just simple arithmetic and percentages that I could rapidly do in my head became dependent on calculators/spreadsheets. For all other trivia type knowledge, my brain has offloaded it to the internet RAM in my pocket…

I think some people are okay with communication that’s less involved. Like meme-y BSing where everyone involved knows everyone else is putting like 12% of their thinking power into sending a response.

I don’t really enjoy that, so I find having that many threads stressful and annoying.

I just take a hard line and will unilaterally downgrade communications (while politely letting the other party know). I have all my family group chats muted because my mom uses “Send” the way you’d use Enter on a desktop. End of a sentence? Send text. Next bullet point in a list? Send text.

I muted the chats and told her that I want my ringer on in case there’s an emergency, but I got 30 something notifications in 5 minutes during an interview and it’s unfair to the candidate or other people in the meeting. Internally I rationalize it as revoking someone’s ability to make noises on my phone at whim. They can still text me, they just can’t interrupt me anymore.

It helps a lot, even if only temporary. I’ve muted people for a few hours or a couple days before when I’m already stressed and they’re really chatty.

Re: Failing grades soar with AI usage, dwindling math skills in Berkeley CS classes

#446

Post by [deleted] »

SoftTalker wrote: post #425
conductr wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m not noticing the decline in my own abilities any more than I had before using them. I finished undergrad 20 years ago and my once sharp math skills had been severely diminished within only 5-10 years. Just simple arithmetic and percentages that I could rapidly do in my head became dependent on calculators/spreadsheets. For all other trivia type knowledge, my brain has offloaded it to the internet RAM in my pocket…

Most/all of my university-level math knowledge is gone, atrophied from never having needed to use any of it professionally. I don't even really recall needing it for any of my CS coursework, honestly. It was just required for the degree.

[deleted]

Re: Failing grades soar with AI usage, dwindling math skills in Berkeley CS classes

#448

Post by superloika »

beej71 wrote: post #44
blululu wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can use an llm to get out of doing homework but you can also use it to ask every question you would ever wanted in a 1-1 tutoring session. The problem is kids will use it to cheat on their homework. If we can’t deal with that problem then a ban is necessary. But these things can be phenomenal teachers if you use them properly.

As an educator, this is exactly what I struggle with. I'm pulling out all the stops to give students every chance to do the hard work and not lean on AI. But there's a good chunk of the class who don't listen to reason. I haven't figured it out yet. They know, logically, they can't pass an interview, but that's apparently a "tomorrow" problem. The smart ones either use it not at all, or use it to positive effect, lik…

> But there's a good chunk of the class who don't listen to reason. I haven't figured it out yet. They know, logically, they can't pass an interview, but that's apparently a "tomorrow" problem.

These people should be doing manual work, not intellectual work. There is no shortage of manual work available.

Re: Failing grades soar with AI usage, dwindling math skills in Berkeley CS classes

#449

Post by Jtarii »

tstrimple wrote: post #442
boringg wrote: post #421

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean the argument that is being put forward is that it isn't a pneumatic nail gun for the human mind - it atrophies are mathematical capability and quality of understanding.

You are less of a human for not starting all of your fires using friction from rubbing two sticks together. People who use lighters are destroying their ability to start fires without lighters and that is a very serious problem!

No technology has attempted to supplant human cognition on this scale before. Pretending its the same thing as going from sticks to a lighter is just silly.

Re: Failing grades soar with AI usage, dwindling math skills in Berkeley CS classes

#450

Post by BeetleB »

boringg wrote: post #417
magicmicah85 wrote: post #361

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The jump is very likely due to AI usage and lack of skills in mathematics. It seems like prerequisite classes are not being fulfilled. "Ranade said students are expected to enter the course having taken classes on linear algebra, vector calculus and mathematical proofs. However, she found out in office hours that many students struggled with linear algebra, and was even more shocked when one student told her the line…

"Also, this professor doesn't grade on curves? Could be very specific to this teacher. I don't know." Someone has to hold standards up -- they seem to be falling down across the board in education.

Actually, when I read they usually graded on a curve, I lost all interest. I don't respect teachers that grade on curves.

You should be graded by how well you know the material - not how well your peers don't know it. I'm always grateful both my undergrad and grad professors didn't curve on a grade.

In my first company, I had 4 different jobs. It was a common adage: Go into a low performing team that does simple work and you'll get promotions much quicker than in a high performing team doing challenging (but fun) work.

It was right. I had 2 "dream" jobs where I did cool, challenging stuff, but where everyone was more than competent. They turned out to be career killers. The promotions I got were all in the other 2 jobs where I did boring business logic coding, and where my peers were barely competent (one had trouble navigating directories using the command line).

That's what happens when you grade on a curve. Smart people begin to work on boring stuff, and not the real challenges.

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