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Failing grades soar with AI usage, dwindling math skills in Berkeley CS classes

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Re: Failing grades soar with AI usage, dwindling math skills in Berkeley CS classes

#411

Post by raesene9 »

aleph_minus_one wrote: post #372
SecretDreams wrote: post #343

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You go to a university because you are deeply interested in understanding the subject that you study. This is a bit of a naive or maybe affluent take? Like, theoretically, I agree. And I myself was curious. But most people, by and large, are going to university because they know they need a degree to get a job, unlike their parents or grandparents. And even "the degree" is quickly becoming devalued in this current…

> > You go to a university because you are deeply interested in understanding the subject that you study. > This is a bit of a naive or maybe affluent take? Concerning the "naive" aspect, I wrote something at https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48397759 Basically, this was really my lived experience, which might have been amplified that it was a decent university in a "boring" town where learning for your studies wa…

I think perhaps the reason you are seeing quite a few commenters expressing skepticism to your comment "You go to a university because you are deeply interested in understanding the subject that you study." is that you appear to be extrapolating from one example (your own), without considering whether that's likely the wider experience of people going to university.

In the UK anyway, there's an acknowledged idea that many people go to university because there is a societal expectation that they should and also because many careers require a degree even for entry level positions.

There is also much less emphasis on other routes of tertiary education (e.g. vocational schools), when compared to places like Germany.

Re: Failing grades soar with AI usage, dwindling math skills in Berkeley CS classes

#412

Post by surbas »

IMHO this is clear case of correlation vs causation…

This generation of kids were fucked so hard by Covid and all the remote “schooling” and closing of public life.

AI rise happens to be happening when the kids who were just entering teens at Covid time are now going to school.

Re: Failing grades soar with AI usage, dwindling math skills in Berkeley CS classes

#413

Post by SecretDreams »

cmrdporcupine wrote: post #365
SecretDreams wrote: post #347

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's two fold. They're learning and understanding more things, but at a very surface level and without the nuance and ability to actually use the knowledge because they have none of the muscle memory and hard work associated with learning it. You can use AI or the internet to learn the basics of how a gas engine works in a couple of minutes. But you'd be incapable of actually working on a gas engine or designing one.…

If used correctly though I think the models in fact can be useful for gaining depth. With the right prompting they can actually perform a pedagogic role. One must just resist the temptation to have them do the work for you. I've used my phone taking pictures + Codex + a PDF of my tractor manual to help me effectively diagnose and manage repairs in my tractor. (Though these models remain terrible at the physical world…

> One must just resist the temptation to have them do the work for you.

We are in the instant gratification era of humanity where a dopamine rush drives most people. This is a systematic shift that happened through the introduction of smart phones and social media and then progressed for a good decade to what we have in front of us today.

Asking people to "resist the urge" when they've been programmed/brought up to feed the urge is not pragmatic unless you are also proposing a way to erase the damage done from the instant gratification era.

We're in the end game presently. For every one person like you and your examples, there's gotta be 100x or more who are not using the tools the way you've presented them.

Re: Failing grades soar with AI usage, dwindling math skills in Berkeley CS classes

#414

Post by sfink »

kingkawn wrote: post #339
userbinator wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It takes time for students to work their way through the system.

Wouldn’t this change be evidenced right away after the elimination of the test as criteria if the test was responsible

Not if kids are prepping for the test in a way that results in real gains. Which seems likely, especially in the age of AI: "should I actually study math or just use ChatGPT to pass this course?" One semester of coasting through might not do that much harm, but at some point the compounding effects will tip you over the edge.

Re: Failing grades soar with AI usage, dwindling math skills in Berkeley CS classes

#415

Post by sfink »

HanayamaTriplet wrote: post #77
lelanthran wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's always a lag between cause and effect in education. Works the other way too - if you introduce something positive in grade 1, you'll only see the results a few years later.

If it's a lagging effect, then why is the year-over-year spike in failure rates happening not just in 1st/2nd year classes, but also in a 3rd/4th year class at the same time?

Good point. I'm inclined to think it's because of a quality threshold in chatbots.

Re: Failing grades soar with AI usage, dwindling math skills in Berkeley CS classes

#416

Post by Schiendelman »

kingkawn wrote: post #339
userbinator wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It takes time for students to work their way through the system.

Wouldn’t this change be evidenced right away after the elimination of the test as criteria if the test was responsible

Define "right away". How long after taking the SAT does a child have their first classes at university? At least a year?

Re: Failing grades soar with AI usage, dwindling math skills in Berkeley CS classes

#417

Post by boringg »

magicmicah85 wrote: post #361
acaloiar wrote: post #218

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It didn't just suddenly materialize. A sudden materialization is what's depicted by the data. > It's been steadily getting worse. I don't believe this is accurate. Failing grades are what the observation entails, and the data clearly depict an abrupt change; not a gradual one. In the section titled "Failing grades in 3 CS classes skyrocket in spring 2026 ", there's a clear jump in failing grades for all cited cours…

The jump is very likely due to AI usage and lack of skills in mathematics. It seems like prerequisite classes are not being fulfilled. "Ranade said students are expected to enter the course having taken classes on linear algebra, vector calculus and mathematical proofs. However, she found out in office hours that many students struggled with linear algebra, and was even more shocked when one student told her the line…

"Also, this professor doesn't grade on curves? Could be very specific to this teacher. I don't know." Someone has to hold standards up -- they seem to be falling down across the board in education.

Re: Failing grades soar with AI usage, dwindling math skills in Berkeley CS classes

#418

Post by JonChesterfield »

iLoveOncall wrote: post #134

All of this makes me selfishly excited for my own future. It's glaringly obvious that anyone who's a heavy user of LLMs is atrophying their skills in real-time. I have yet to meet a single person for whom it's not the case. But I essentially completely stopped using them for software engineering (why isn't really relevant, but it's not because od this skill atrophy). So as the skills of everyone else is diminishing,…

This only holds if society manages to hang together, which in the age of military strategy written by AI is looking borderline.

Re: Failing grades soar with AI usage, dwindling math skills in Berkeley CS classes

#419

Post by rybosworld »

If you watch old videos of tradesmen using basic hand tools like hammers, you'll find examples of skill/dexterity with the tool that I think don't exist today at all except maybe in communities like the Amish.

I think it's true that we collectively lose something akin to beauty every time technology advances. But usually some new set of skills that have beauty emerge.

If LLMs end up being the pneumatic nail gun for the human mind, I personally think that's a fine thing for us to accept.

If they end up being more like some dark factory that autonomously does everything - then I think ultimately the thing that makes us human (our minds) will slowly decay and be lost, and that seems very sad. That's a version of the future we should try to prevent, I think.

Re: Failing grades soar with AI usage, dwindling math skills in Berkeley CS classes

#420

Post by boringg »

kingkawn wrote: post #339
userbinator wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It takes time for students to work their way through the system.

Wouldn’t this change be evidenced right away after the elimination of the test as criteria if the test was responsible

No probably needs a couple more years. Writing the test itself is motivation to do well in HS math. If that no longer becomes a driver probably takes off the drive in other courses over a couple years. I bet without the SAT as a standardized test a lot of HS math courses are easier for the teacher because the quality can lapse.

Also some children who excel write their SATs sometimes 2-3 years before college and then re-write if need be.

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