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Failing grades soar with AI usage, dwindling math skills in Berkeley CS classes

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Re: Failing grades soar with AI usage, dwindling math skills in Berkeley CS classes

#381

It's incredibly difficult at this point to "skate where the puck is going" as Gretzky is said to have done. No one knows what knowledge work will look like in five years. People used to memorize log and trig tables, and no one would say that's part of being a competent mathematician at this point. That said, assessments of poor critical thinking skills jump out at me more than the rest. That sort of thing seems likel…

> That sort of thing seems likely to matter until machines can replace us completely.

This seems like the crux of the issue. Like people are banking on that day coming even if they don't know exactly when.

Re: Failing grades soar with AI usage, dwindling math skills in Berkeley CS classes

#382

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If LLMs were around when I was a student, I would've also used them to "speed up" my homework assignments then proceed to fail all my tests. You go to a university because you are deeply interested in understanding the subject that you study. Doing the homework and the tests are just the "goalposts" to check for yourself whether you made progress on this. So, as long as you are not under time pressure (which you in…

> You go to a university because you are deeply interested in understanding the subject that you study. I don't think I've met anyone who fits that description. The ones deeply interested in the subject would likely skip college anyway if not for future economic prospects.

>The ones deeply interested in the subject would likely skip college anyway

Spoken like a true software engineer ;), there are jobs where you have to have a degree to get the job. "Real" engineers with sign-off responsibilities, Medical Doctors, etc.

Re: Failing grades soar with AI usage, dwindling math skills in Berkeley CS classes

#383

It's incredibly difficult at this point to "skate where the puck is going" as Gretzky is said to have done. No one knows what knowledge work will look like in five years. People used to memorize log and trig tables, and no one would say that's part of being a competent mathematician at this point. That said, assessments of poor critical thinking skills jump out at me more than the rest. That sort of thing seems likel…

> People used to memorize log and trig tables, and no one would say that's part of being a competent mathematician at this point.

Sometimes I don’t wonder if this wouldn’t still be a good way to educate people. Part of the problem is education has to sort of optimize to try to educate like passive people. If you’re a curious and pragmatic person, you can understand how to use what you learned in a liberal arts degree to be better at almost any job.

As I look forward to the second half of my career. Certainly I use AI in healthy doses.

But people talk about the division between practice and performance, and most of my practice is old school. Reading books. Writing my thoughts down. Memorizing quotes and passages.

I think more important than what you learn is the way you use it to train and evolve your brain, with the caveat that - I know this is more useful to me because I have a marketable skill. This is the balance universities have to stick, there are tons of people with liberal arts degrees in middling jobs.

But at least half if not more of education should be on building practical skills in the three r’s.(maybe the third r should be ‘rgumentation instead of ‘rithmatic, but I digress)

It’s interesting - people decry memorization in education, and I’m not entirely naive as to why - if you were to show up to the first day of work and say “I don’t know any of what you just said but I can recite log tables! It might be your last day - and yet one of the most underrated skills, especially late in your career is the ability to ingest and operate in large quantities of information.

Re: Failing grades soar with AI usage, dwindling math skills in Berkeley CS classes

#384
post #374

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You go to a university because you are deeply interested in understanding the subject that you study. I don't think I've met anyone who fits that description. The ones deeply interested in the subject would likely skip college anyway if not for future economic prospects.

Then you either really haven't tried very hard to notice them or have been in an academic environment with severe defects. Does college even work for future economic prospects, by the way?

> Then you either really haven't tried very hard to notice them or have been in an academic environment with severe defects.

Sure. (?)

> Does college even work for future economic prospects, by the way?

Where I live, a college degree is a legal requirement for a lot of professions that pay more than entry level jobs (although not all of them). So, people go to college to get a better paying job in a few years than they could get by immediately entering the workforce.

Re: Failing grades soar with AI usage, dwindling math skills in Berkeley CS classes

#385

I have some sympathy for these kids. If LLMs were around when I was a student, I would've also used them to "speed up" my homework assignments then proceed to fail all my tests. Now I work mostly with PhDs who were at the top of every academic environment they've ever been in. And yet I can see their thinking skills rapidly declining as well; many of them can no longer brainstorm, code, think deeply, or write without…

> If LLMs were around when I was a student, I would've also used them to "speed up" my homework assignments then proceed to fail all my tests. You go to a university because you are deeply interested in understanding the subject that you study. Doing the homework and the tests are just the "goalposts" to check for yourself whether you made progress on this. So, as long as you are not under time pressure (which you in…

> You go to a university because you are deeply interested in understanding the subject that you study. Doing the homework and the tests are just the "goalposts" to check for yourself whether you made progress on this.

Some students do not have this privilege and implicitly see university as first and foremost a funnel into a paying career.

Re: Failing grades soar with AI usage, dwindling math skills in Berkeley CS classes

#386

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This has not been true for something like 70 years now. People go to university because it is expected that that is what you do after high school. In Germany, many people indeed say if you are not deeply into the topic that you study, you should rather get a vocational training (Ausbildung), or attend a different kind of tertiary education than a university such as - Fachhochschule - Berufsakademie (these words hav…

This situation is changing in the US but isn't well reported, in my opinion. We haven't regained traditional apprenticeship roles (perhaps because we so weakened unions?) but 30 (of 50) States have free or heavily subsidized two-year community / vocational college programs. Affordable and accessible vocational education opportunities are increasingly present. I also think (very subjectively) that we are seeing a rene…

> We haven't regained traditional apprenticeship roles (perhaps because we so weakened unions?)

The reason for the traditional apprenticeship roles is not unions, but rather capitalistic:

- If potential employees are well-trained the employer doesn't have to invest resources for training them.

- The certificate of the vocational training means that the employer knows that an applicant has an established standard, and can save time testing whether he is qualified.

- Because the trainee needs practical experience, employers can invoice this additional worker to the customer. Because the trainee needs explanations and thus works slower, more hours can be invoiced to a customer.

Re: Failing grades soar with AI usage, dwindling math skills in Berkeley CS classes

#387

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is really about time we thought about what universities are for in the 21st century, since there has been significant scope creep wrt labour markets, particularly roles which do not actually require university education but do require a degree for CV reasons. It is nonsense in the 21st century to require a bachelor's degree for such roles. Not to mention the huge societal pressure that you have mentioned, which no…

Universities today are seen as debt manufacturing facilities. Debt that cannot be discharged. AI is seen as an act of war against the world’s working classes. Rich people aren’t building bunkers in foreign countries and buying yachts the size of a town because we ran out of land in America. Buckle up for a wild tumultuous period of human history.

Sure, I think this is a major element in the States, but I have never been there and all of this applies to my country where student loans are rare and fees are paid by the State.

Re: Failing grades soar with AI usage, dwindling math skills in Berkeley CS classes

#388

Earlier quoted context omitted.

taste and judgment, which you can only obtain by having a strong CS base and coding manually for years. I disagree, the definers of taste; art and food critics, movie and book reviewers, don’t need to have learned the craft by doing. Taste is a separate skill.

No one seriously expects a food critic to be able to cook a Michelin-starred meal. The job of that kind of critic is to be insightful and entertaining, and it's very different to the taste required to create top quality food, which is a combination of solid technical skill and creative flair. Taste in coding is a combination of insight, experience, native talent, technical skill, and flair. Tasteful coding produces c…

If critics were forced to be actually skilled at the craft of creation, the world would be infinitely better off. Both the cello and the player are better off by the cello maker also finally being the cello player. Alienation was a mistake and this part Marx of all people understood well.

This is why "critical thinking" is a meme. Being a critic takes no skill. I want far fewer critics and far more constructive thinking. GenAI being the ultimate constructor is a bonus.

Re: Failing grades soar with AI usage, dwindling math skills in Berkeley CS classes

#389
post #238

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As much as I hate to admit it, using agents for too long makes me less able to think for myself. I am dedicating 30 mins to 1 hour everyday writing and thinking without LLMs.

> I am dedicating 30 mins to 1 hour everyday writing and thinking without LLMs. Before you did this, was literally every hour of your waking time spend thinking about LLMs? I don't think I could do that even if I tried, and I spend all my development hours with agents, but during meals, showers, walking the dogs, enjoying a coffee outside or whatever, naturally I get time to think about other stuff, sounds out of the…

> Before you did this, was literally every hour of your waking time spend thinking about LLMs?

They said "writing and thinking without LLMs", not "not thinking about LLMs". I think they're talking about setting aside time for fairly focused thought/work.

Re: Failing grades soar with AI usage, dwindling math skills in Berkeley CS classes

#390

I have some sympathy for these kids. If LLMs were around when I was a student, I would've also used them to "speed up" my homework assignments then proceed to fail all my tests. Now I work mostly with PhDs who were at the top of every academic environment they've ever been in. And yet I can see their thinking skills rapidly declining as well; many of them can no longer brainstorm, code, think deeply, or write without…

When reading and writing became prevalent, the ancients bemoaned our reduced facility to memorize long texts. Are we now “less smart” because of that technology?
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