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Failing grades soar with AI usage, dwindling math skills in Berkeley CS classes

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Re: Failing grades soar with AI usage, dwindling math skills in Berkeley CS classes

#291

Post by cushychicken »

jventura wrote: post #263
kuschku wrote: post #248

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The other two groups also used LLM but in a high-level and architectural way. Sounds more like the score is 3/3 (100%) Would you have accepted them cooy-pasting code from libraries together to build their project? If not, why is using LLM generated code different?

> Would you have accepted them cooy-pasting code from libraries together to build their project? Yes, if they are "responsible" for the code delivered, where responsible means they understand the code, the architecture, the decisions made, etc. In this case, the students had to invent multiple strategies to solve a specific problem. The "successful" groups did a mix of generated and hand-crafted code (don't know perc…

> Yes, if they are "responsible" for the code delivered, where responsible means they understand the code, the architecture, the decisions made, etc.

This is a good principle to maintain, I think.

I'm not a professor, but I manage a team of about a dozen people. The maxim I have is: "You're responsible for anything that hits git."

Don't care if the LLM generated it, or the LLM told you if it's a good idea. If you commit it, you are endorsing it as a good idea - so you're the one I'm going to ask about it. I see the same principle at work in your pedagogy.

> I'm not anti-AI (and really, what could I do if I were?) since I use it myself, I'm just anti-slop, especially from my students.

This hits. Especially this part:

> and really, what could I do if I were?

My completely unsolicited opinion: you're doing a responsible thing by teaching these students how to use AI as a reference, and keeping them honest about not using it as a substitute for their own critical thinking.

Re: Failing grades soar with AI usage, dwindling math skills in Berkeley CS classes

#292

Post by chasd00 »

qweqwe14 wrote: post #243
zelos wrote: post #237

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I totally agree about school-level homework: it was many years before my pre-frontal cortex developed enough that I could have forced myself to do the work. That said, though, one thing I don't understand about the heavy users of AI in academia and software development is that the thinking and coding is the fun part . And that's the part so many people seem to be so keen to automate away.

Isn't the fun part having the thing work how you wanted it to? Why shouldn't I be keen to automate the process away?

different strokes for different folks. I'm def. in that end result camp, i get the biggest thrill out of seeing something work. For me, coding agents are awesome because i can bring a lot more to life in much shorter of a time frame. I do enjoy the process and problem solving of coding, it relaxes me. On the other hand, i really really enjoy when an idea i have is on the screen and working.

Re: Failing grades soar with AI usage, dwindling math skills in Berkeley CS classes

#293

Post by olmo23 »

danubis wrote: post #245
ibmmmm wrote: post #238

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As much as I hate to admit it, using agents for too long makes me less able to think for myself. I am dedicating 30 mins to 1 hour everyday writing and thinking without LLMs.

Shouldn't it be the opposite? 1h max LLM per day?

Perhaps, but I'm not sure my boss would appreciate that though.

Re: Failing grades soar with AI usage, dwindling math skills in Berkeley CS classes

#294

Post by deadbabe »

It’s not that they can’t think deeply, these are smart people.

It’s that there is no reward for doing so and in fact there is punishment.

The punishment is that for all the thinking you do, someone else will arrive at the same result as you in less time, or maybe even a better result. You don’t get rewarded for the effort of thinking, only for the end result.

Naturally, even if you are an intelligent individual, you can still be conditioned in this way to take the easy way out, unless you purposely like to suffer. But suffering is only worth it if you know in the end you come out ahead.

But now, you do not come out ahead. People will be using AI in the workforce for the rest of your life anyway, might as well just join the trend.

It’s like if everyone started taking a magical steroid and growth hormone to build muscle and look great instead of actually working out in a gym and possibly getting worse results anyway.

Re: Failing grades soar with AI usage, dwindling math skills in Berkeley CS classes

#295

Post by cj »

eueje wrote: post #268
Archer6621 wrote: post #234

Earlier quoted context omitted.

True. People don't do it though, because keeping skills sharp and using them takes effort, and we have a predisposition to be as efficient as possible with how we spend our effort; if there's an easier way to do it in our awareness, we will naturally gravitate towards that. LLMs are often a universal crutch or swiss-army-knife that significantly take away workload for many abstract tasks, so all kinds of atrophy in a…

“ However, when looking at muscle, once you have it you don't need to use it as much in order to maintain it” No.. this depends on how much muscle you have. The appropriate comparison is mass and density of knowledge/understanding vs muscle. There’s not a chance in hell you will retain mass and dense muscle without pushing the body hard. Just in the same way you will not retain very deep understanding of things unles…

Building muscle is much harder than maintaining muscle.

And if you went 3 years without exercising, you'll be able to get your muscles back much quicker than had you never had the muscle before.

It's pretty comparable to skills. You don't need to practice as hard to maintain a skill than you do to build it. And if you let the skill atrophy, it's much easier to recover the skill compared to building it from scratch.

Re: Failing grades soar with AI usage, dwindling math skills in Berkeley CS classes

#296

Post by ap99 »

yubblegum wrote: post #267
ap99 wrote: post #266

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This goes with calculator to do basic math, contacts apps to store phone numbers instead of remembering them, and watches to tell time imo. Sure we could use our brain power with old techniques to do these, but why? I don't want to do any of these. I'd rather use that brain power for other problems. Same with maps. I don't want to have to store a bunch of location or routing data in my head. I think what you're point…

You are confusing faculty with records. The ability to navigate by sense of direction. The ability to memorize numbers. The ability to think clearly by yourself. Watcha gonna do if big tech takes away your access to the outsourced brain, dear?

Build one myself and make a ton of money. Or wait for the next guy/company to do it.

Re: Failing grades soar with AI usage, dwindling math skills in Berkeley CS classes

#297

Post by chewbaxxa »

ap99 wrote: post #266
yubblegum wrote: post #251

The obvious cognitive deterimental effects of using map apps, when we all realized we lose directional sense and our previous ability to navigate without the smartdevices, was society's canary in a coal mine and a headsup of what was coming. WAL-E and Idiocracy. The future.

This goes with calculator to do basic math, contacts apps to store phone numbers instead of remembering them, and watches to tell time imo. Sure we could use our brain power with old techniques to do these, but why? I don't want to do any of these. I'd rather use that brain power for other problems. Same with maps. I don't want to have to store a bunch of location or routing data in my head. I think what you're point…

You are not storing these things in your head at the expense of anything else. You’re “training” the existing underutilized capacity in your brain for something useful.

Re: Failing grades soar with AI usage, dwindling math skills in Berkeley CS classes

#298

Post by kqr »

somenameforme wrote: post #39

The likely 'real' reason is hidden in one paragraph within the article and has nothing to do with the implication of the eye-catching title: "Both Garcia and Ranade have joined more than 1,300 UC faculty in signing a petition calling for the reinstatement of ACT and SAT standardized testing scores for STEM admissions in the UC system. The petition and its accompanying open letter detail similar concerns with students…

> removing test requirements from admissions, under an argument largely related to equity. It's been a failure everywhere [...] among all application components, test scores are the single greatest predictor of a student’s future Yale grades.

It reads as though you tried to use the quote to support your conclusion that "it's been a failure", but the quote and the original rationale are optimising for different things. Something can be a success in improving equal opportunity while still leading to worse grades.

Or to flip it around: we could say admission testing "has been a failure everywhere" because it biases admissions in favour of certain demographics. But that wouldn't really be a fair assessment because being free of demographic biases is not the purpose of admission testing!

Re: Failing grades soar with AI usage, dwindling math skills in Berkeley CS classes

#299

Post by windward »

helsinkiandrew wrote: post #285
camelmel wrote: post #35

I have some sympathy for these kids. If LLMs were around when I was a student, I would've also used them to "speed up" my homework assignments then proceed to fail all my tests. Now I work mostly with PhDs who were at the top of every academic environment they've ever been in. And yet I can see their thinking skills rapidly declining as well; many of them can no longer brainstorm, code, think deeply, or write without…

> If LLMs were around when I was a student, I would've also used them to "speed up" my homework assignments then proceed to fail all my tests. I agree - I would have been toast. I wonder if the teachers/colleges need to change the way they teach and assess. Let the students use the AI tools they like (perhaps guide them how they can use them professionally), but test regularly and early on the skills/knowledge they'r…

>(perhaps guide them how they can use them professionally)

If that's anything like how they guided me to use programming languages professionally...

In my workplace I find systems and policies move too slowly to keep up with how rapidly the LLM world is changing. Colleges are even more glacial. They've barely adapted to video conferencing.

Re: Failing grades soar with AI usage, dwindling math skills in Berkeley CS classes

#300

Post by olpad »

phantom784 wrote: post #287
helsinkiandrew wrote: post #285

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If LLMs were around when I was a student, I would've also used them to "speed up" my homework assignments then proceed to fail all my tests. I agree - I would have been toast. I wonder if the teachers/colleges need to change the way they teach and assess. Let the students use the AI tools they like (perhaps guide them how they can use them professionally), but test regularly and early on the skills/knowledge they'r…

> I read a few years ago about a teacher (I think highschool) who put his lectures on YouTube for students to view in their own time and then used the in class hours for interaction, questions, tests. That seems like a smart approach. It reverses the traditional model of "lecture in class, homework outside of class".

I always absolutely hated when a teacher did a reverse classroom and I had to “learn” at home and then practice in the classroom. I think the solution is more engaging lessons and less outside work. I know why homework exists, but homework is a chore that most people want to get done as fast as possible. If kids got to learn something interesting in school and then have their free time after school, there would be less dependence on AI. If they’re interested in the topic, they’ll put more effort into it. If not, they were never going to retain it anyway
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