Live data from Hacker News

They’re made out of weights

maxleiter.com

81–90 of 739 posts

Re: They’re made out of weights

#81
post #78

Imagine writing something so incredibly brilliant (rather: adapting from the original) that it's entirely unlikely that you'll ever write something so incredible ever again . But congrats: this is absolutely & incredibly brilliant. Can't wait for the Jon Benjamin voiceover.

They're Made out of Meat - Terry Bisson, 1991 https://web.mit.edu/people/dpolicar/writing/prose/text/think... Radio play by Miriam Tolan and Russ Armstrong: https://www.wnycstudios.org/podcasts/studio/segments/168264-... (EDIT: the original parent was missing "rather adapting from the original")

Your EDIT is untrue, but thanks for linking to originals.

Here is Jon Benjamin reading Bisson's original text: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5usXhX0zaO4>

Re: They’re made out of weights

#82
post #4

It's not often I see something that's fractally wrong but here we are. There is a dictionary, it's called the tokenizer. There are grammar rules, they are just very weak because the structure of human language is generally quite weak. When presented with languages which have strong consistent grammars the weights are very easily interpretable as a grammar: https://arxiv.org/abs/2201.02177 The point of the original sh…

And you know what the tokenizer is made of?

Weights.

Re: They’re made out of weights

#85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is not meant as a gotcha, I am genuinely curious how you believe consciousness can be an emergent property. I assume you don't believe consciousness is a physical property in the brain, so what entity is actually experiencing that consciousness? Or, what does it even mean to experience consciousness? Or are these not even the right questions?

> This is not meant as a gotcha, I am genuinely curious how you believe consciousness can be an emergent property. I was about to post the exact opposite question? How could it not be an emergent property? Unlike consciousness, the concept of emergence is pretty well defined: An emergent property is a characteristic or behavior that a complex system has, but which its individual components do not have on their own. C…

Well, I think the "brain as an antenna" theory is also plausible given your preconditions.

But I think my issue with the emergence theory is that it seems to imply to me that consciousness is non-physical and non-local. So what entity is actually experiencing the consciousness? It's not that I believe consciousness is physical and local, but people who make the emergence argument seem to believe it is and I can't figure out how that is supposed to work.

Re: They’re made out of weights

#86
post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Time is entropy unfolding as things with nonzero temperature do what they do. Psychological time is your own weights being updated in response to stimuli and internal processing. When there isn't anything interesting happening, no updates are needed, and you don't perceive much time. That's why there's a logarithmic effect on the "density" of time as you age.

This is actually something I was always confused about. If nothing interesting happens as we get old, it should be boring and as result, slow slog. Yet it feels like time accelerates as I get older.

I'm only middle age, and this has been the scariest part. Feeling older is hard. But watching it go faster is harder still. like you can more directly see all that is left.

Although part of me thinks some of this is from being substantially busier than ever (work + kids), and hoping maybe it can slow down again, at least a little bit.

Re: They’re made out of weights

#87
post #76
post #12

This read like poetry to me. Thank you for sharing it. I have a linguistics background and a lot of my philosophizing lately has been on whether or not the emergent abilities of the LLMs is deep down a similar mechanism that creates our consciousness. For a little bit I was working on having linguistics based evals for a kaggle competition. My challenge was whether or not I could mask things well enough to not trigge…

AFAIK every argument against conciousness being emergent is just a weak "God of the gaps" argument (since we don't fully understand it all) or a nonsense analogy like the Chinsese room where if you seperate the hardware and software it's not concious anymore (like, duh, remove a brain from a body and it is no longer concious either). Yeah, the weights not updating online makes them less like a living organism that ca…

I find that a lot of arguments against emergent consciousness seem to just come out of an atheist rephrasing of abrhamic priors about the existence of a "soul". In personal chats, I've found people from East Asian countries (minus Korea, which makes sense) to be much more open to the idea of machine consciousness.

Re: They’re made out of weights

#88
They are made out of data bits (memory) and switching bits (transistors/compute). Bits are made out of electric voltage and no voltage. Voltage is made out of flow of positive electric charges. Charges are made out of quarks ...

Re: They’re made out of weights

#89
post #12

This read like poetry to me. Thank you for sharing it. I have a linguistics background and a lot of my philosophizing lately has been on whether or not the emergent abilities of the LLMs is deep down a similar mechanism that creates our consciousness. For a little bit I was working on having linguistics based evals for a kaggle competition. My challenge was whether or not I could mask things well enough to not trigge…

For obvious survival reasons we evolved to have sensory/cognitive access to our own activity, self-monitoring, and self-modeling ourselves.

The self-modeling, is in such a tight loop, it melds "ourselves" and our model of ourselves, our thinking and choices, and experience of our thinking and choices, into one component.

Like you can't analyze half a wheel of a bicycle and be talking about the same thing.

This awareness, increased modeling, control, feedback loop has tightened up over many stages. Just a few:

1. The body-sense loop

2. The internalized-environment-model loop

3. The body-internal-function loop

4. The body-internal-model loop

5. The emotional-cognitive loop

6. And finally, the tightest loop of all, our high-level cognitive activity, experienced as feedback directly, our self-model, and our self-direction, all merged into one thing.

We literally spend almost all day, every day, thinking about ourselves, in terms of our inner self.

That is consciousness. Rich self awareness, a merger of self-model and self-direction, and all in service of understanding and managing ourselves. Hw we can leverage our greatest tool, our self-directable mind, its habits, views, and behavior.

This wasn't an accident. A happy side-effect of our brains. It is a biologically evolved focusing of our highest-level behavior, with tight feedback, constant self-modeling and continuous focus on our inner status as motivation and most privileged object of our control. It has been ruthlessly optimized for, for a very long time.

Re: They’re made out of weights

#90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This is not meant as a gotcha, I am genuinely curious how you believe consciousness can be an emergent property. I was about to post the exact opposite question? How could it not be an emergent property? Unlike consciousness, the concept of emergence is pretty well defined: An emergent property is a characteristic or behavior that a complex system has, but which its individual components do not have on their own. C…

Well, I think the "brain as an antenna" theory is also plausible given your preconditions. But I think my issue with the emergence theory is that it seems to imply to me that consciousness is non-physical and non-local. So what entity is actually experiencing the consciousness? It's not that I believe consciousness is physical and local, but people who make the emergence argument seem to believe it is and I can't fig…

Why would emergence imply anything about non-physicality and non-locality? Temperature is a another common example of an emergent phenomena. An individual atom doesn't really have a temperature, only a large group of them do. But you wouldn't say temperature is non-physical and non-local, would you?
Post reply on HN