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Silicon Valley's dirty secret - age bias

reuters.com

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Re: Silicon Valley's dirty secret - age bias

#141

Post by adrianhoward »

gfodor wrote: post #53

When you get older, several things work against you to jump into SV culture: - You are not as easily impressed by or eager to try new technologies. (many of which are new spins on old ideas you've seen before.) - You fail to see the appeal of the types of technology younger people are using. Or, you see the switching costs as too high to move away from what you are using now. - Your lack of ignorance leads you to (of…

I think the best way to fight against ageism is to make an effort to retain an open mind and curiosity.

The problem is that doesn't fight ageism. It panders to it.

Ageism is when you don't get treated fairly just because of your age - no matter how curious and open minded you may or may not be.

If somebody things I'm closed minded and incurious because I'm in my forties they are being ageist. They are the one with a problem. Simples.

You fight ageism by pointing out bigoted asshattery when you encounter it. You fight it by not staying quiet. You fight it by lobbying to make it illegal. You fight it by giving people concrete advice on how to deal with it in the workplace.

You don't fight it by trying extra hard to demonstrate that their bigotry doesn't apply to you. That's a coping strategy. Not a fighting strategy.

Re: Silicon Valley's dirty secret - age bias

#142

Post by freyr »

codewright wrote: post #10

Dirty yes, secret no. Straight talk: I'm the CTO at a startup and I often have to call out the founders and employees for ageism. I resent that they say things that make me think they wouldn't take hiring an experienced engineer seriously. I resent that they think my profession is best served by dumb happy newbies with no private life. I refuse to tolerate this in any company I work for and I will ceaselessly call th…

> I refuse to tolerate this in any company I work for and I will ceaselessly call them out for this ageism.

And yet they appointed a 24 year old as CTO. Better pack up your stuff, since you refuse to tolerate it.

Re: Silicon Valley's dirty secret - age bias

#143

Post by svachalek »

magicalist wrote: post #112
michaelochurch wrote: post #14

My first thought: narcissism . Narcissists hate being around older people because it reminds them that, some day, they'll be old and unable to do the sorts of things that narcissists tend to do on the weekend. I don't think that all founders are narcissists, but if you want to be able to hire narcissists (which 75% of execs are, let's be honest) then ageism becomes practical, sadly. Then again, I think some of it is…

er, ignoring the narcissism thing, which is bizarre (you want to hire narcissists, so better not hire old|ugly|disabled people!) your post seems to be arguing for the assumptions that the article is about: we can assume old people had to take shitty work in the past, therefore they are probably going to appear to be a poor candidate. This completely ignores the evidence directly in front of us that all good engineers…

This article was focused more on the movie-villain version of ageism (Over 25! NO HIRE! MUHAHA!!) but the real-world version often goes something like, "look at this guy, he's like, 38! if he's applying for anything less than CEO he's obviously terribad!" That said, I also think the argument missed the mark.

Re: Silicon Valley's dirty secret - age bias

#144

Post by king_jester »

radicalbyte wrote: post #91
embwbam wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, wait. I've always said this too: it shouldn't matter how I dress. But the truth is that dress is very frequently an indicator of how aware one is. It's a social consciousness that is sometimes reflected in other things (like being able to adapt to a new technology). Look at this comic: http://xkcd.com/1139/ - the playground jerks call the guy a loser because he isn't playing the social game. They are right that…

Exactly, it's an indicator. At the CEO level, I'd argue that you must look for people who understand the value of understanding their target audience ("customer") and taking the low cost / low friction action required. Or, put simply, spend a couple of hours and $200 on cloths to look the part. What, exactly, do you think would happen to a 24 year old hotshot banker who goes to an interview at, say, Goldman Sachs wea…

> At the CEO level, I'd argue that you must look for people who understand the value of understanding their target audience ("customer") and taking the low cost / low friction action required.

> Or, put simply, spend a couple of hours and $200 on cloths to look the part.

Assembling a $200 wardrobe tailored to appeal to the innate biases of someone hiring based on the clothes you wear is not low cost, low friction, or even representative of many audiences for the kinds of software people write. Also, that you tie looking appropriate to spending a bunch of money on clothes is laughable and goes against startup culture in the first place (when you have little or no money, you mend and thrift your clothes).

> What, exactly, do you think would happen to a 24 year old hotshot banker who goes to an interview at, say, Goldman Sachs wearing Bermuda shorts and a t-shirt?

If your company is aspiring to the Goldman Sachs culture, I will never apply to or do business with it or you.

Re: Silicon Valley's dirty secret - age bias

#145

Post by enjo »

stcredzero wrote: post #39
codewright wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know the value of experience because I know what my code looked like 5 and 10 years ago. I also know how incredibly poor my judgment was back then compared to now. I can only imagine what 20 years will do for me. That's why I actively seek out more experience in candidates because I believe it'll make them more competent and sharp at what they do. Somebody with battle-scars is something a startup could really use.…

> Somebody with battle-scars is something a startup could really use. Most of my pre-startup experience is as a contractor/consultant. Lots of young engineers don't know how to interview. (In addition to being interviewed by young ones lately, I also realize how I've fucked it up back then.) Lots of them don't know how to listen. The vast majority don't know how much they don't know.

I also realize how I've fucked it up back then

Really that's been the story of my 30's. A series of cringe-worthy realizations that I was not nearly as good at my job as I thought I was at 26.

Re: Silicon Valley's dirty secret - age bias

#146

Post by [deleted] »

michaelochurch wrote: post #14

My first thought: narcissism . Narcissists hate being around older people because it reminds them that, some day, they'll be old and unable to do the sorts of things that narcissists tend to do on the weekend. I don't think that all founders are narcissists, but if you want to be able to hire narcissists (which 75% of execs are, let's be honest) then ageism becomes practical, sadly. Then again, I think some of it is…

[deleted]

Re: Silicon Valley's dirty secret - age bias

#147

Post by georgemcbay »

lsc wrote: post #130
jsaxton86 wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've also worked with developers in their fifties who are awful. Age bias is awful, and I have worked with a lot of older developers who know their stuff and are extremely competent, but the idea that 25 years of experience automatically makes you a better programmer is wrong. Good developers are able to learn and adapt quickly, and often older developers can't do that.

>the idea that 25 years of experience automatically makes you a better programmer is wrong. Seriously? You think you can do something for 25 years without getting better at it?

There's an old quote that I've seen attributed to lots of different people that for this situation can be paraphrased:

"Some people have 25 years of experience in a field while others have one year of experience repeated 25 times"

So yeah, anyone who is developing software and keeps learning new things and pushing their boundaries is going to improve quite a bit over those years, but someone who just sticks with the same language/framework and basically reimplements the same CRUD app over and over is probably not going to knock your socks off no matter how long they've been at it.

Source: I'm a 39 year old developer and have worked with fantastic older developers and terrible older developers.

Re: Silicon Valley's dirty secret - age bias

#148

Post by rayiner »

As Silicon Valley matures, I think age bias will become less prevalent. I think there will be an inflection point where novelty is going to have to give way to quality. Facebook is illustrative. Facebook is exactly what you'd expect to get if you hired a bunch of recent college graduates to build something: creative, but otherwise utter crap. It's not what you would get if you hired a team of seasoned professionals to build a product with well-defined requirements. At some point, I think in the near future, you'll see Facebook (and the other companies like it) transition from the former into the latter.

Re: Silicon Valley's dirty secret - age bias

#149

Post by adrianhoward »

dpratt wrote: post #6

I'm 37, and honestly this has started to scare me over the past couple years.

I'm 37, and honestly this has started to scare me over the past couple years.

This is a coping strategy - not a fighting strategy - but think about options for working by/for yourself.

Playing the grizzled consultant rich in lessons learned can play well. You're, unfortunately, working with the opposite age bias that anybody under 30 doesn't know what they're talking about.

Ageism wasn't a major factor - but it was a minor one - when I decided to start my own company up again when I hit forty.

I figure that I'm not going to discriminate against myself ;-)

Re: Silicon Valley's dirty secret - age bias

#150

Post by rayiner »

w1ntermute wrote: post #105
seiji wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Many SV startups are proxies for being a close knit frat. Hiring for "cultural fit" has gone way off the wacko deep end. (Did google start this? "Oh, you don't have a degree? We won't hire you. Oh, but you do make your own beer and wear funny shoes? Cultural fit! Hired!") Your job description skills matter, but only if you also are a functional alcoholic who is addicted to playing online games for 30+ hours a week in…

I'm in the same category. I don't enjoy drinking and I hate most video games, especially console ones and especially FPSes. The SV frat culture is such a turnoff.

What's absolutely hilarious about it is that it's not the same frat culture that typifies Wall Street. It's the nerd frats.
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