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Gemma 4 12B: A unified, encoder-free multimodal model

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Re: Gemma 4 12B: A unified, encoder-free multimodal model

#241

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not at all. Getting really pedantic, tokenization is also a form of encoding, so it doesn't matter the modality you're using, you'll end up doing some type of encoding in some way.

Tokens are such a strange base unit. Couldn't we do something that naturally conforms better to reality than such choppy units that cause all sorts of artifacts? making everything 'language based' prevents true multi-modality. Thinking isn't done in language. Thinking outputs language, but its far more like multiple waves of data coalescing into an 'idea', internal... subjectively (n=1) at least. I think wave/signal…

> making everything 'language based' prevents true multi-modality. Thinking isn't done in language. Thinking outputs language

Your problem isn't with tokens, but with "language". Tokens have little to do with language, other than usually being consumed in sequence, but that's true of anything that has to span over time. Thinking of tokens as letters or subwords is mistaking the general with the specific. We may have started with letters and words and subwords (trying to find the best balance for training), but then people figured why not add pixel patches to the dictionary, and then sounds, and then other signals, and after iterating on it a bit, we now have image and sound and symbol sequence data all being part of the same token space.

LLMs stopped being about "language" - in the sense of English, or C++ - long, long time ago. We're still using tokens, but they're more like quanta of sensory input now.

You can take it in two directions, I guess - either consider "Large Language Model" to be an anachronym, a name that couldn't keep up with times, but we got used to it back when it made sense, or alternatively, just broaden your understanding of "language" to encompass any pattern of quantized sensory inputs, regardless of modality :).

(Given how we know humans can communicate with pictures, gestures, body language, noises, movement, actions, or even gaze, and that when it becomes common enough, such systems develop their own pattern structure - dare I say vocabulary and grammar - and that none of it requires or usually involves going through a "normal language" intermediary - I'd lean towards the second direction :)).

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ETA: also wrt. "thinking with tokens", LLMs don't really think in tokens. You may have heard that phrase, that may have been coined by Karpathy, that "for LLMs, tokens are units of thinking". It's a useful shorthand to remind people that prompting models to be terse and skip prose is effectively dumbing them down, but it's also a bit misleading.

A better analogy is that tokens act like clock signals: each consumed token causes certain amount of computation happen in the network, much like a single clock signal in digital electronics, or turning a crank one revolution in a mechanical contraption. This makes tokens "units of thinking" in the sense that processing N tokens causes M amount of computation to happen. Now, for whatever problem you're solving, there is a minimum amount X of computation that is required to solve in correctly, and it's mathematically impossible to do with less. So if you ask an LLM to solve it, it needs to process at least as many tokens as it takes for M = X. If you force the model to be so terse that it makes M > X.

Re: Gemma 4 12B: A unified, encoder-free multimodal model

#243
post #36

What are the use cases for these small models? Is there anyone using models of this scale in their daily life who could share their experience?

Yes, all my emails gyer sorted out by a finetuned gemma. There are turned into images passes to the model, as multimodal is so practical.

Re: Gemma 4 12B: A unified, encoder-free multimodal model

#244

I do enjoy the immediate out of touch signaling with the "runs on your 16gb vram laptop" line. Because everyone has a laptop with 16gb vram, or can just pop out and buy a new one, right?

They already provide E2B and E4B that run on (much) smaller devices, including tablets and phones. This fills the gap in the middle. The bigger Gemma 4 models are excellent for their size, but at 8-bit quantization they need about 64GB of VRAM or unified memory. 48GB for 6-bit. Any lower quantization than that, they start to get notably dumber. So, a 12B is interesting for that middle ground.

Re: Gemma 4 12B: A unified, encoder-free multimodal model

#245
post #84
post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The audio side is even more interesting, as it seems they totally got rid of positional embedding are just doing a single linear transform to match the LLM input dimension and that's it. > Audio: We simplified audio processing even further. We removed the audio encoder entirely and projected the raw audio signal into the same dimensional space as text tokens.

I guarantee you there's positional information one way or another. they just don't mention it because positional embeddings are extremely cheap computationally, not worth mentioning

Audio is 1 dimensional so the usual RoPE position encoding should handle it like it does for text tokens. You only need extra position encoding for higher-dimensional stuff like images.

Re: Gemma 4 12B: A unified, encoder-free multimodal model

#246
post #36

What are the use cases for these small models? Is there anyone using models of this scale in their daily life who could share their experience?

This is one https://post.bot/

Why would I want an AI receptionist. A human receptionist is about 1000x more careful, caring and intentional.

They are charging $15.00 an hour for an llm powered assistant. Like wtf, how do these people think that's a valid business model. This will 1000% annoy every customer that uses it. I hate this timeline so much.

Re: Gemma 4 12B: A unified, encoder-free multimodal model

#247

I do enjoy the immediate out of touch signaling with the "runs on your 16gb vram laptop" line. Because everyone has a laptop with 16gb vram, or can just pop out and buy a new one, right?

Surely they must know the current hurdles, but clearly they know that all the relevant people are monitoring the market for the proper hardware to get and 16GB will be an entry point.

Re: Gemma 4 12B: A unified, encoder-free multimodal model

#248

Earlier quoted context omitted.

MLX is quite literally macOS-specific technology, for other platforms you want non-MLX. I was sure "MLX" stood for "Metal-something-something" but can't find any reference to that somehow, anywho, "Metal" is hardware-accelerated graphics on Apple platforms FWIW. Edit: about the actual release on Ollama, if you're on non-Apple hardware you probably want the NVFP4 variant ("gemma4:12b-nvfp4") which was uploaded 45 minu…

I realize this is a little confusing; we're working w/ the MLX team to bring MLX to other platforms, but we're not quite there yet. The `gemma4:12b-nvfp4` model is specifically for the MLX engine. For the GGUF 4bit variant (i.e. non-macs) you'll need `gemma4:12b-it-q4_K_M` which I just pushed. You'll also need to upgrade to version 0.30.4 which we're just about to release (it's in prerelease and we're running through…

I gotta say, having both "gemma4:12b-mlx-bf16" and "gemma4:12b-nvfp4" be MLX-specific, and not labeling all of the MLX-specific ones as such, is a bit different than "little confusing" and more "set up to be confusing" :)

> You'll also need to upgrade to version 0.30.4 which we're just about to release

Interesting, wasn't Google coordinating today's release with you? Considering the blog post seems to have gone out way before the release even been cut.

Re: Gemma 4 12B: A unified, encoder-free multimodal model

#249
post #220

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't have the energy to build stuff all the time, that's a rabbit-hole side tunnel I don't really want to get into. I have larger concerns in my life that are more urgent than developing that side of things. But I've moved on from Ollama for the time being, though I am mainly interested to see what the Gemma 4 MTP speeds are like on my M1 Max, so I may test it. I am quite impressed with the tools in LM Studio, whi…

Totally understandable. YMMV but I found the llama.cpp build process to work on the first try on my machine, and it only takes a couple minutes, which definitely isn't my usual expectation or experience. I was very pleasantly surprised. Their web-ui is also getting very polished while still doing a great job of letting you tweak all the weird settings.

Sorry, I sounded a bit terse there!

You have probably convinced me to give it a try, to be honest.

It's just that, to cut a long story short, I am currently recovering from a level of burnout so severe that twelve months ago had me fully convinced I was actually in early-onset cognitive decline (I am a bit over fifty).

Only a little over two months ago I was still sure I'd have to quit IT and find a slow job because I was so out of the loop; this whole industry shift even in just the last few months is so shocking and strange.

So I have to be a bit cautious about how many indirections I add, if that makes sense. But I am compiling bigger projects than llama.cpp so I will give it a go.

Thank you for the extra detail.

Re: Gemma 4 12B: A unified, encoder-free multimodal model

#250
post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Could say the same for camera processing in the Pixel Camera app or any other binary someone wants to re-use that comes included in a software distribution (seemingly for 'free'). They can't lock the instructions up on the server so they might as well make the binary be freely distributable? Companies don't commonly give away executable binaries "just because", why'd they start now for these binary blobs that are the…

Binaries are source code outputs, they are copyrightable and patentable. Weights are not copyrightable so people can freely extract the weights and run them. If Google patents any of the novel algorithms here releasing it all freely isn't an impediment to making people license it.

Weights are not copyrightable?!

Are you sure that isn't about LLMs' outputs? There I know there have been some court cases that say this, but the model itself is a work created in intricate and somewhat creative ways (I hesitate to use the word "creative" here, but would similarly hesitate to label a routine picture of the moon creative whereas pictures basically always have copyright; the bar for creativity is basically an epsilon amount above zero, afaik)

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