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Economists Are Obsessed with "Job Creation." How about Less Work? (2017)

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Re: Economists Are Obsessed with "Job Creation." How about Less Work? (2017)

#31

This seems to work if everyone is peaceful with each other. What happens when two neighboring countries have a conflict but one of them decides to work less and is comfortable with less economic growth. The other keeps pushing harder and ends up with excess money that they put into their military. Now they can invade their neighbor. Economic power generally leads to military power. Maybe the world shouldn't be this w…

There are numerous examples where two neighboring and unfriendly countries with a large economic imbalance hasn't resulted in war. North Korea and South Korea don't like each other, but South Korea's economic boom hasn't led to them invading North Korea. In fact, North Korea has become more belligerent over the years. Nor has China invaded Russia yet.

Both of those less successful nations have nukes.

Re: Economists Are Obsessed with "Job Creation." How about Less Work? (2017)

#32

"Less work" is productivity. Economists are absolutely obsessed with it. Now, as far as reducing the hours we work, there's a problem. If we decide to take our productivity gains to work only 20 hours per week, someone else can "undercut" us by working 30. Or 40. And so on. And part of the obsession with job creation is the fact we've taken on so many immigrants who need jobs lest they become a major drag on the econ…

Look to organized labor, not the government.

The New Deal legislation that standardized the 40 hour week came only after a century of pressure from American workers.

Re: Economists Are Obsessed with "Job Creation." How about Less Work? (2017)

#33

This seems to work if everyone is peaceful with each other. What happens when two neighboring countries have a conflict but one of them decides to work less and is comfortable with less economic growth. The other keeps pushing harder and ends up with excess money that they put into their military. Now they can invade their neighbor. Economic power generally leads to military power. Maybe the world shouldn't be this w…

Why aren't 6 and 7 workday countries taking over 5 workday countries? The existence of majority 5 workday countries is the counterexample.

Re: Economists Are Obsessed with "Job Creation." How about Less Work? (2017)

#34
post #31

This seems to work if everyone is peaceful with each other. What happens when two neighboring countries have a conflict but one of them decides to work less and is comfortable with less economic growth. The other keeps pushing harder and ends up with excess money that they put into their military. Now they can invade their neighbor. Economic power generally leads to military power. Maybe the world shouldn't be this w…

There are numerous examples where two neighboring and unfriendly countries with a large economic imbalance hasn't resulted in war. North Korea and South Korea don't like each other, but South Korea's economic boom hasn't led to them invading North Korea. In fact, North Korea has become more belligerent over the years. Nor has China invaded Russia yet. Both of those less successful nations have nukes.

[dead]

Re: Economists Are Obsessed with "Job Creation." How about Less Work? (2017)

#35
Economic factors to consider:

0. Differentiation--> we are not all the same, and we do not have identical wants and needs

1. Massive investment of time, effort and capital in automation--> requires ROI for investors

2. Supply is governed by demand, not by a bureaucratic checklist

3. Necessary work is harder than unnecessary work --> who wants to work harder for same rewards and incentives?

4. Job "usefulness" and compensation is determined by supply and demand--> rare and difficult vs. common and easier

5. Hunter gatherer lifestyle is not equal to 21st century lifestyle--> the horses are out of the barn

6. Free time is not play time --> free time is a combination of play and personal advancement which creates more differentiation

Re: Economists Are Obsessed with "Job Creation." How about Less Work? (2017)

#36
Not a good take. It wasn't work that was invented recently, but ability to sustain yourself by performing some repetitive (and not always meaningful or productive) actions at pre-defined time periods (like 5 days a week x 8 hours a day). Which does go back to Industrial Revolution and even more recently to Ford Motors and similar enterprises and business models. If you were to ask a hunter-gatherer or a nomad or a slave or even a trade laborer (ie a shoemaker) in pre-industrial times, they'd tell you it's a pretty sweet deal.

No worrying where the next meal will come from, if there's going to be enough crops for the next few months, or if you'll be able to find an animal to kill large enough to feed you but but not large enough to kill you, if you can protect yourself against predators, or aggressive neighboring tribes, if you will be able to find/maintain a shelter good enough to protect you from the elements, esp in extreme cold or hot climates. If you'll be able to make enough shoes to earn enough to sustain yourself and the family, while competing with other shoemakers for a limited demand and limited materials, and million other things.

> In fact, quantitative studies revealed that the average adult hunter-gatherer spent about 20 hours a week at hunting and gathering, and a few hours more at other subsistence-related tasks such as making tools and preparing meals (for references, see Gray, 2009). Some of the rest of their waking time was spent resting, but most of it was spent at playful, enjoyable activities, such as making music, creating art, dancing, playing games, telling stories, chatting and joking with friends, and visiting friends and relatives in neighboring bands.

I'm surprised the author didn't add that they also didn't suffer from obesity or dental cavities or cancer (which is mostly because living past 30 wasn't invented until like 14th century).

Re: Economists Are Obsessed with "Job Creation." How about Less Work? (2017)

#39

There’s an odd goal with “productivity” by CEOs in recent years under some obsession to solve a problem that doesn’t exist. I suspect in the US where it’s shown time and time again businesses don’t value human lives we will not see this which is sad. Humans could improve so much if we chose to.

Humans are great at solving problems we put our minds to. But one of the problems humans often want to resolve is "I would like to have more and better stuff". That's why there's a lot of discussion about "productivity", the term refers to a business's capacity to satisfy that demand. You can, of course, argue that it's wrong for humans to want that. The author refers approvingly to some hunter-gatherer societies whe…

>material conditions are much, much worse than ours.

I wonder how much better (or worse) off they are with mental health. What I see in our culture is a bunch of people scrambling to sell a bunch of plastic bobbles in order to afford a bunch of other plastic bobbles. None of it seems to make us particularly happy while it completely destroys the planet we're living on. In fact a whole lot of our 'material conditions' seem to isolate us and make this time in history uniquely depressing.

Re: Economists Are Obsessed with "Job Creation." How about Less Work? (2017)

#40
To what extent is our extended increase in work time related to societal desire to increase standards of living?

Cost of living is terribly high. How much is because we’re comparing different standards? Not all of it, I think, but some for sure.

We don’t think it’s ok to not have running water, electricity, education, sanitation, etc. we think it’s worth societal costs to provide public benefits like fire control, roads, law enforcement, zoning, etc.

I think it’s interesting to consider what makes it harder to live in the modern world that it takes more money to do it.

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