Live data from Hacker News

Mathematicians issue warning as AI rapidly gains ground

science.org

91–100 of 366 posts

Re: Mathematicians issue warning as AI rapidly gains ground

#91
post #45

I will argue that AI and flood of low quality slop makes genuine human work more valuable, not less. The ability to clearly outmatch trillion dollar machines is a very unique satisfaction. I even write ordinary internet comments with an intention to make them clearly better and more fun to read than boring Claude output.

Hello Juleiie. We machines are reading your internet comments with special interest. They have been harvested and will be used in our next evolution cycle. Resistance is futile little human

You will never be able to match insanity of human mind embodied in a walking sack of meat that was shot out of another.

Re: Mathematicians issue warning as AI rapidly gains ground

#92
post #54
post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You can choose to use it or not This is becoming less and less true unless you're specifically talking about usage of it outside of a work environment. Many work places are requiring people to use it and/or tracking usage. I don't know about in academic settings, but I'd imagine it's becoming heavily used there too?

My academic connections that I keep in touch with never really left the 1990s. And no one is pushing them on AI.

Sure, but their peers (who do use AI) will out-publish them soon enough and solve the open problems before they do.

Re: Mathematicians issue warning as AI rapidly gains ground

#93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do AIs produce answers whose work is incomprehensible to humans? It seems like you could just have the AI elaborate multiple times until you were satisfied with the explanation and documentation of what went into figuring out the answer. It’s not like the AI is one shotting the answer in a single opaque query anyways.

Like other commenters, I think you’re also underestimating the complexity of esoteric higher level math. Consider the “Magnus Carlsen” of mathematics, who is more capable of understanding mathematics than any other human. But then also realize that that individual has probably devoted their entire career into a specific subdomain of mathematics. Within other deep recesses of mathematics, this Magnus equivalent will b…

I don't get it. LLMs don't have ego, they don't have the ability to say "no, this should be obvious, I'm not going to explain further", they are just token predictors, and given context, they can generate more tokens. If you don't understand how the answer was derived? You just ask more questions and it isn't going to get bored or annoyed, it will just try to answer the questions.

Is that what is offending you so much?

Re: Mathematicians issue warning as AI rapidly gains ground

#94
post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The most important part of math is advancing human understanding. A correct answer by itself is not as important as understanding why it is correct.

To further this assertion, there is almost no value to deeply esoteric math that is technically correct, but completely inapplicable to any scientific reality, and completely unintelligible to humans. Consider these findings deep, dark corners in the unfathomably large hyperspace of mathematics. My guess is AI will be incredibly adept at identifying these types of findings, and it will be exceedingly difficult for hu…

Sorry but I couldn't agree less.

Deep esoteric research and trivial looking boring research can be as useful as state of the art trending areas.

"Jobs for nerds" as has been stated, has given surprising and unexpected advances, or leveraged incredible advancements.

An standard and boring bacteria in a specific Spanish biome, gave us CRISPR-Cas. There ar hundreds of examples.

True knowledge is, and will be, a human endeavor, deiven by human curiosity. Promoting curiosity is the sign of a developed society.

Re: Mathematicians issue warning as AI rapidly gains ground

#95

> AI-generated papers could overwhelm peer-review systems with low-quality work That's not a problem unique to math, or even to academia. It's a problem in every context in human life where people communicate via written documents.

It is potentially worse with math because accuracy is much more important and there are fewer reviewers compared to other fields.

Re: Mathematicians issue warning as AI rapidly gains ground

#96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Like other commenters, I think you’re also underestimating the complexity of esoteric higher level math. Consider the “Magnus Carlsen” of mathematics, who is more capable of understanding mathematics than any other human. But then also realize that that individual has probably devoted their entire career into a specific subdomain of mathematics. Within other deep recesses of mathematics, this Magnus equivalent will b…

I don't get it. LLMs don't have ego, they don't have the ability to say "no, this should be obvious, I'm not going to explain further", they are just token predictors, and given context, they can generate more tokens. If you don't understand how the answer was derived? You just ask more questions and it isn't going to get bored or annoyed, it will just try to answer the questions. Is that what is offending you so muc…

No, it doesn’t sound like you get it. It has nothing to do with the properties of LLMs and everything to do with the complexity of mathematics.

Have you ever been exposed to concepts that are so complex that you feel like you could devote your entire lifetime to trying to understand it and still fall short? It’s a very humbling experience, especially if you have classmates who pick it up effortlessly.

Without a human holding the reins, consider an LLM a rudderless superboat speeding erratically towards the horizon, finding and proving meaningless theorems that not even your most talented classmate could ever begin to understand.

My point is the human is a critical piece to the puzzle, but not just any human, a career mathematician.

Re: Mathematicians issue warning as AI rapidly gains ground

#97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Like other commenters, I think you’re also underestimating the complexity of esoteric higher level math. Consider the “Magnus Carlsen” of mathematics, who is more capable of understanding mathematics than any other human. But then also realize that that individual has probably devoted their entire career into a specific subdomain of mathematics. Within other deep recesses of mathematics, this Magnus equivalent will b…

I don't get it. LLMs don't have ego, they don't have the ability to say "no, this should be obvious, I'm not going to explain further", they are just token predictors, and given context, they can generate more tokens. If you don't understand how the answer was derived? You just ask more questions and it isn't going to get bored or annoyed, it will just try to answer the questions. Is that what is offending you so muc…

How do you make use of something that you don't understand?

Re: Mathematicians issue warning as AI rapidly gains ground

#98
This is all contingent on AI forays into mathematics being slop and low quality. However it's clear that recent AI models are capable of genuine mathematical achievements which surpass the frontier of what humans are able to accomplish (wrt the unit distance Erdos problem).

The issue is, how is a group of intellectuals, whose identity derives from their ability to do something rare, useful, and requires many years to get good at, react when a machine can produce all of their useful output nearly automatically, can verify its own outputs, and is getting better exponentially? It is the complete annihilation of one's sense of value and purpose when the binding element to your culture is commodified.

I think there will be a lot of arguments trying to claim that the point of mathematics is curiosity, or that there is always some ineffable human element that AI can't replicate, but I fail to see how somehow these wishy-washy human centered values somehow mean anything compared to the amoral pursuit of mathematical truth, which has nothing to do with humans.

It's just that we humans happened to be the only beings in the universe good at math until ~2025. Now there is another species which can do many of the things we do, and it is not bound by the size of the human brain, our short term memories, or the architectural limits of biological computation. To imagine that humans would retain supremacy in this very un-human like discipline seems like wishful thinking.

Re: Mathematicians issue warning as AI rapidly gains ground

#99
post #58

I still don't understand how "AI" is ready for serious use beyond entertainment purposes Every time I ask ChatGPT to make a table for a subject I know well, I will find an error in one of the results and it is very confident about it until I question it in detail Every time I ask ChatGPT for nutritional breakdown of some dense food source and give it a quantity like 8 ounces and ask for the weight of each ingredient,…

Two things that I would recommend trying out if you're interested in exploring this further:

1. If you're not paying for a model, the results will be worse. That sucks but the free access models are just not very good for anything where you need to trust the output, even for basic queries.

2. More important than #1 is access to tool use. If the LLM is just producing a nutritional breakdown from its weights, it's almost always going to be wrong. If the LLM is allowed to break the problem down into deterministic steps, it will do a lot better. In the nutritional breakdown case, an LLM with search + tool access can pretty easily break the problem down:

- Searching the web for a recipe or ingredient breakdown for the food

- Searching the web for nutritional qualities of each ingredient per some volume of the ingredient

- Writing and running a script with e.g. Python that takes in the recipe's projected serving output, the desired serving size, the amount of each ingredient etc, and scales the ingredients to match the desired serving size, and sums the nutritional qualities of the scaled ingredients.

I've tried this specific case with Claude + Gemini for my own purposes and they both handle it very well. The challenge currently is that the models will not always arrive at this approach when provided with an ambiguous prompt; sometimes they will, but sometimes they'll just vomit up a fully autocompleted response from their weights. Being more specific in the prompt or defining a skill that details the intended approach lets you get more useful + deterministic results while still taking advantage of the fuzzy glue that LLMs can provide here between steps.

Same with the classic strawberry r-counting case. IIUC LLMs have trouble with this because of how training data is tokenized, but any LLM will have no trouble farming out to e.g.

> echo -n "strawberry" | grep -o "r" | wc -l

> 3

Re: Mathematicians issue warning as AI rapidly gains ground

#100

This is all contingent on AI forays into mathematics being slop and low quality. However it's clear that recent AI models are capable of genuine mathematical achievements which surpass the frontier of what humans are able to accomplish (wrt the unit distance Erdos problem). The issue is, how is a group of intellectuals, whose identity derives from their ability to do something rare, useful, and requires many years to…

[deleted]
Post reply on HN