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Mathematicians issue warning as AI rapidly gains ground

science.org

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Re: Mathematicians issue warning as AI rapidly gains ground

#61

Post by alpinisme »

cryo32 wrote: post #57
alpinisme wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The choice only remains if using it isn’t a huge multiplier. If it is a huge multiplier/accelerator, then for a while it will be ambiguous and the choice will remain. But as time goes on, the gains of using it will be so apparent and the advantage of the people who use it so great (in publication numbers, hiring, etc) that it will force others to. I don’t say that with any particular relish. But I am skeptical of the…

I don't think all universities or research agencies are particularly pressed on this. I mean my daughter is a notable researcher in a scientific field and they have absolutely no pressure to use AI to pump out papers or deliver value quickly.

I highly doubt there is any overt pressure in academia right now to use AI. It’s a relatively conservative institution. But there’s certainly pressure to publish (publish or perish being a common phrase for decades), and competition for jobs in academia is fierce. That’s what I meant in referring to long term pressure.

Re: Mathematicians issue warning as AI rapidly gains ground

#63

Post by yieldcrv »

turzmo wrote: post #48

Much of math (or science) research has the strange quality of being mostly curiosity-driven, but having giant benefits that occasionally spin out to the public. Some questions are more urgent and practical. My feeling is that the more directly practical a question is, the more likely the research community is to support AI usage in that question. The annoying thing about recent AI advances is that they target questio…

That's an interesting perspective and I wholly disagree with the conclusion

You are saying that tough problems with no applicability are useful because people that you happen to respect got good by their curiosity and pursuit of trying to solve these kinds of problems and failing, but branching off into other cognitive areas as mathematicians

Now if I know anything about math for the sake of math, and academics, these are the same people that lament the idea of intelligent people going to the finance sector or any other trade they just happen not to respect as much

The similarity being that their exact criticism of why, something they don't respect and view as having little utility, is the exact reasoning presented here now that AI can solve their pointless problems

What I'm seeing is that human mathematicians have a laundry list of problems they have failed to solve for decades, centuries, which is what they are funded and employed to do. "Computer" used to a human job title too.

This leads me to being excited about AI one-shotting these problems, let move on to something else.

Re: Mathematicians issue warning as AI rapidly gains ground

#64

Post by terminalbraid »

rowanG077 wrote: post #38
psyklic wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The most important part of math is advancing human understanding. A correct answer by itself is not as important as understanding why it is correct.

Once you now something is correct, with a proof. It is MUCH easier to understand why it is correct. Than to start from a slate that you don't even know whether something is correct or not. In that sense AI that can just solve high level math problems is immensely useful. It allows a mathematician to explore ideas at a much more rapid pace.

Consider that since an LLM is really just an large encoding of data, the "proof" is in there already. All further work on it is effectively only rearranging words. Then all math an LLM is capable of is "done" and we have the "proof" in the LLM which by your definition is now "MUCH easier to understand" and this work is somehow sufficient.

Do you see the problem with your reasoning?

Re: Mathematicians issue warning as AI rapidly gains ground

#65

Post by Theodores »

From the article:

> However, the declaration argues math is more than a machine for producing correct answers. The discipline, its authors believe, is a deeply human endeavor built on creativity, understanding, collaboration, and the pursuit of knowledge for its own sake.

Generation X was the last generation that had 'general knowledge', as in an abundance of fairly useful information stored in 'grey matter' that could be recalled quickly. When search engines came along there really wasn't much need to know anything since most things could be looked up. However, you still had to think.

With LLMs, thinking is kind-of optional. This really is an existential threat to our intelligence since 'use it or lose it applies'. I am glad these mathematicians are doing their duty as canary in the coal mine.

Re: Mathematicians issue warning as AI rapidly gains ground

#67

Post by psychoslave »

fragmede wrote: post #18
silveraxe93 wrote: post #5

> However, the declaration argues math is more than a machine for producing correct answers. There might be more to maths than that, but that is definitely the most important part. I love science funding. But not because it's a jobs program for nerds.

People need jobs. What's wrong with nerds having jobs via a program?

People need many things, there are all kind of theories ready to assess and assimilate if deemed worth it out there. A job is not part of any I’m aware of, though it can encompass some human needs in some cases, or go straight against them in some other case.

Re: Mathematicians issue warning as AI rapidly gains ground

#68

Post by modriano »

> “The tech industry proceeds in accordance with commercial logic, which is antithetical to the values of mathematics,” declaration co-author Michael Harris of Columbia University

As a former physicist and current data scientist/engineer, I know for a fact that commercial utility drives math research and researchers.

Math is a tool to solve problems. Some mathematicians might only love the process of using the tool, but commercial logic absolutely drives mathematician attention to develop commercially useful tools.

Re: Mathematicians issue warning as AI rapidly gains ground

#69

Post by yaris »

datsci_est_2015 wrote: post #41
psyklic wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The most important part of math is advancing human understanding. A correct answer by itself is not as important as understanding why it is correct.

To further this assertion, there is almost no value to deeply esoteric math that is technically correct, but completely inapplicable to any scientific reality, and completely unintelligible to humans. Consider these findings deep, dark corners in the unfathomably large hyperspace of mathematics. My guess is AI will be incredibly adept at identifying these types of findings, and it will be exceedingly difficult for hu…

Works of Shinichi Mochizuki immediately come to mind. He is not AI but provides very good examples of math that is useless because it is incomprehensible by (other) humans.

Re: Mathematicians issue warning as AI rapidly gains ground

#70

Post by brador »

BigGreenJorts wrote: post #60
turzmo wrote: post #48

Much of math (or science) research has the strange quality of being mostly curiosity-driven, but having giant benefits that occasionally spin out to the public. Some questions are more urgent and practical. My feeling is that the more directly practical a question is, the more likely the research community is to support AI usage in that question. The annoying thing about recent AI advances is that they target questio…

Sounds like yet another example of how AI is kneecapping industries from the bottom by "removing the barrier to entry" but really just removing the training path by doing the work itself with no guidance for juniors.

We are on tiny 1-5T parameter models with local power stations.

We can reach Q models just by throwing resources at it. That’s a million times current B models.

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