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My thoughts after using Clojure for about a month

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Re: My thoughts after using Clojure for about a month

#121

Post by pdimitar »

midnight_eclair wrote: post #110
pdimitar wrote: post #6

With respect, this topic in particular has been beaten to death. I too liked Clojure when I tried it some years ago (agreed on the composition and data structures; both are _great_). But the real value-add is in the runtime, not the syntax. Java has a solid runtime but it's not yet as good as Erlang's, maybe even not up to the standards of Golang -- I am talking concurrency / parallelism here (for memory management I…

> the real value-add is in the runtime, not the syntax. Java has a solid runtime but it's not yet as good as Erlang's, maybe even not up to the standards of Golang won't lie, this is hilarious. you got me from nodding along to being the spitting out food meme guy in a span of couple seconds. JVM runtime is undeniably the most well researched and optimized runtime in history of runtimes, specifically in realm of concu…

Well, you are kind of using my comment to vent your frustrations about AI while it has barely anything to do with it -- but you tried to link the two, unsuccessfully. Which is not fair as you have no clue of my stance on AI and are extrapolating a bit too much.

Syntax does not matter simply because it's an extremely leaky abstraction of the runtime below, is my point.

Of course syntax must be high signal/noise ratio, I believe every reasonable programmer will agree. But many are making entire careers in PLs where that's not the case. Hence, in practice it does not seem to matter much, for the better or the worse.

RE: runtime, try and pay attention to the parameters given in my comments. I specifically acknowledged that the JVM is a great and mature runtime but it's lagging behind on STM / actor capabilities. Tearing down a straw man is not impressive and it comes across as you trying to gain visibility by deliberately misrepresenting your discussion opponent's arguments.

Re: My thoughts after using Clojure for about a month

#122

Post by perarneng »

I spent a week with Clojure and coming from other functional languages my problem was not Clojure, it was dynamic typing. I got strange bugs in the standard library because I accidentally sent in nested incompatible instances of objects and it was really hard to figure out what was wrong in a quick way. With typesafe languages you are stopped at compile time.

Re: My thoughts after using Clojure for about a month

#123

Post by evelant »

Sharlin wrote: post #120
pgt wrote: post #118

> "I do wish there were an easier way to move in the ]}]})))}-ness of block ends though." If he means navigating the AST, there is Parinfer: https://shaunlebron.github.io/parinfer/ Paredit / Parinfer ruined other languages for me. It lets you navigate up/down/in/out of the Clojure AST with keyboard commands and mutate those expressions, e.g. "Split" will split open the current data structure you're in: `(a| b)` =Spli…

Indeed. The incredibly clumsy way we choose to edit source code has baffled me since I was first acquainted with parinfer. Having to keep the source in the shape of a valid AST almost entirely manually is really annoying.

Check out Ki editor https://ki-editor.org/ — core movements based on AST

Re: My thoughts after using Clojure for about a month

#124

Post by yolkedgeek »

zuzululu wrote: post #57
jimbokun wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If that’s your concern you don’t need to be concerned with any technical quality of any language. Just count job postings by language and learn the one with the highest value.

if there isn't any jobs for it it probably doesn't have the appeal or communicate economic value

Jobs and market have a huge factor of 1. politics 2. synergy

Almost the only reason that python is popular and people do everything with it is synergy. The only reason that javascript is eating the world and any web dev has to know it, and people do everything with it is synergy.

A big reason for C# to have popularity is because it's for Microsoft (politics).

These are just some examples. Being used doesn't mean anything.

There were and still are a ton of PHP jobs. You tell me, is it because PHP is a great language and solves our problems? No, because it has synergy.

If you're good enough, you can pretty much choose what language/framework you work in.

Re: My thoughts after using Clojure for about a month

#125

Post by embedding-shape »

evelant wrote: post #123
Sharlin wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Indeed. The incredibly clumsy way we choose to edit source code has baffled me since I was first acquainted with parinfer. Having to keep the source in the shape of a valid AST almost entirely manually is really annoying.

Check out Ki editor https://ki-editor.org/ — core movements based on AST

Huh, very interesting and obvious in hindsight. What languages/syntaxes does it support though? Parinfer is lucky that it's relatively small amount of syntax, so can work for entire languages with relative ease, but how does Ki Editor work with Rust for example, if it does? Special keybindings per language?

Re: My thoughts after using Clojure for about a month

#126

Post by [deleted] »

pdimitar wrote: post #121
midnight_eclair wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the real value-add is in the runtime, not the syntax. Java has a solid runtime but it's not yet as good as Erlang's, maybe even not up to the standards of Golang won't lie, this is hilarious. you got me from nodding along to being the spitting out food meme guy in a span of couple seconds. JVM runtime is undeniably the most well researched and optimized runtime in history of runtimes, specifically in realm of concu…

Well, you are kind of using my comment to vent your frustrations about AI while it has barely anything to do with it -- but you tried to link the two, unsuccessfully. Which is not fair as you have no clue of my stance on AI and are extrapolating a bit too much. Syntax does not matter simply because it's an extremely leaky abstraction of the runtime below, is my point. Of course syntax must be high signal/noise ratio,…

[deleted]

Re: My thoughts after using Clojure for about a month

#127

Post by Sharlin »

embedding-shape wrote: post #125
evelant wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Check out Ki editor https://ki-editor.org/ — core movements based on AST

Huh, very interesting and obvious in hindsight. What languages/syntaxes does it support though? Parinfer is lucky that it's relatively small amount of syntax, so can work for entire languages with relative ease, but how does Ki Editor work with Rust for example, if it does? Special keybindings per language?

Looks like it’s written in Rust and the examples are also in Rust :) Apparently it supports any language with a tree-sitter parser, which makes sense, tree-sitter is basically made for this.

Re: My thoughts after using Clojure for about a month

#128

Post by wellpast »

perarneng wrote: post #122

I spent a week with Clojure and coming from other functional languages my problem was not Clojure, it was dynamic typing. I got strange bugs in the standard library because I accidentally sent in nested incompatible instances of objects and it was really hard to figure out what was wrong in a quick way. With typesafe languages you are stopped at compile time.

Clojure was explicitly designed to be dynamic. It’s a feature, not a bug.

https://clojure.org/about/dynamic

Until you get better at not making mistakes that the training wheels of a static type system “protect” you from, lean into the REPL as a means to build up small correct expressions into larger ones.

Re: My thoughts after using Clojure for about a month

#129

Post by embedding-shape »

Sharlin wrote: post #127
embedding-shape wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Huh, very interesting and obvious in hindsight. What languages/syntaxes does it support though? Parinfer is lucky that it's relatively small amount of syntax, so can work for entire languages with relative ease, but how does Ki Editor work with Rust for example, if it does? Special keybindings per language?

Looks like it’s written in Rust and the examples are also in Rust :) Apparently it supports any language with a tree-sitter parser, which makes sense, tree-sitter is basically made for this.

Hmm, but how does that work in practice? Silly and small example; adding/remove turbofish, is very Rust specific, I can't imagine that to be generalized across all tree-sitter parsers, or I misunderstand how tree-sitter is used here, but how would you add/remove/move around Rust's turbofish for example?

Re: My thoughts after using Clojure for about a month

#130

Post by [deleted] »

midnight_eclair wrote: post #110
pdimitar wrote: post #6

With respect, this topic in particular has been beaten to death. I too liked Clojure when I tried it some years ago (agreed on the composition and data structures; both are _great_). But the real value-add is in the runtime, not the syntax. Java has a solid runtime but it's not yet as good as Erlang's, maybe even not up to the standards of Golang -- I am talking concurrency / parallelism here (for memory management I…

> the real value-add is in the runtime, not the syntax. Java has a solid runtime but it's not yet as good as Erlang's, maybe even not up to the standards of Golang won't lie, this is hilarious. you got me from nodding along to being the spitting out food meme guy in a span of couple seconds. JVM runtime is undeniably the most well researched and optimized runtime in history of runtimes, specifically in realm of concu…

[deleted]
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