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CT scans of BYD car parts

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Re: CT scans of BYD car parts

#31

Post by bcrosby95 »

rwmj wrote: post #19
binary132 wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People don’t want cars they can tinker with, they want cars they can get repaired instead of replaced when something breaks….

People actually want a convenient and cheap service for getting around. All other considerations can be derived from this. If it was cheaper to replace the car than get it serviced, they would replace it. Currently this is almost never the case of course, but if it happens in future, watch people switch behaviour instantly.

> If it was cheaper to replace the car than get it serviced, they would replace it.

This is doing a lot of work but I'm going to go with a charitable interpretation. I seriously doubt that we'll ever hit a state where replacing a 2 ton vehicle is cheaper than repairing it. And if we do, I'll have to re-evaluate my charitable interpretation, because something shady is likely going on.

The crazy thing is people don't even repair things that are cheaper to repair than replace. Our countertop icemaker broke and my wife wanted to throw it out. I fixed it with 20 minutes of time and a $15 motor from Amazon.

I think the broader trend isn't what's cheapest, its what is easiest, even if its more expensive. People in large part have no idea how to repair anything they own. This mass ignorance is leading to some pretty poor market incentives.

Re: CT scans of BYD car parts

#32

Post by jhatax »

mnahkies wrote: post #13
joe_mamba wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>This simplifies vehicles considerably. On the contrary, this much integration makes repairs nearly impossible, meaning you might have to swap the whole unit(for a lot of $$$) when something small inside it inevitably breaks. Check out the articles published by EVclinic that cover such cases. Aftermarket EV repairs are already big business due to how difficult and expensive the OEMs make it.

I don't have so much knowledge about EV repairs, but I got burnt by this on ICE cars already - had a car fail a regular fitness test on suspension bushes, they weren't replaceable without replacing the whole arm(s). What should've been a $40 part was being quoted as more than the cars value. (I'm not sure if there was a way around this, there may well have been but I had other things going on and sold for scrap)

FWIW, this has been my experience since 2003 when I had to get suspension work done. Doesn’t matter if it’s a BMW or Honda, dealership or indie repair shop, the story I have heard consistently is that the bushing is part of the arm for structural integrity, stability, . Bushings typically fail faster than the arm does, and this repair is expensive ($1000+ for performance cars, not that much cheaper for Civics).

The “Design for purported Safety vs. Design for Saving Dollars” principle at work.

Re: CT scans of BYD car parts

#33

Post by sephamorr »

ErroneousBosh wrote: post #23
Animats wrote: post #6

Nice. Those are small parts, though. The interesting part is the E-axle. BYD builds a unit with an integrated motor, differential, axle, and wheel hubs. That, plus an electronics box and battery, is the power train. This simplifies vehicles considerably. There are E-axle teardown videos. There's no big secret about how to do this. Copying this is hard for Detroit, because they have a huge investment in "engine plants…

> BYD builds a unit with an integrated motor, differential, axle, and wheel hubs So wait, the whole axle is solid then? Like a 1960s pickup truck but with all the weight of the motor and gearbox hanging off it too? That must give it ridiculous unsprung weight.

On the platforms I've worked with, the weight isn't the issue so much as the quantity of expensive and vibe sensitive parts that are unsprung.

Re: CT scans of BYD car parts

#34

Post by tedggh »

_3u10 wrote: post #21

All you need to know is that BYD cars are good enough that the US had to effectively ban them.

I don’t think BYD would be a hit in the US as they are in Europe. It’s an entirely different market. They may be relatively successful just not to the point of taking an important market share, they would probably be like Mazda. Many of the subsides for Chinese EV ended this year too, and they are now realizing price alone is not a differentiator. So even if BYD eventually makes it to the US, they will be priced close to other brands like KIA and Tesla, but without the advantage of the brand and strong local presence. So no, there’s no concerns with BYD and we may see them sooner than later in the US.

Re: CT scans of BYD car parts

#35

Post by joe_mamba »

bcrosby95 wrote: post #31
rwmj wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People actually want a convenient and cheap service for getting around. All other considerations can be derived from this. If it was cheaper to replace the car than get it serviced, they would replace it. Currently this is almost never the case of course, but if it happens in future, watch people switch behaviour instantly.

> If it was cheaper to replace the car than get it serviced, they would replace it. This is doing a lot of work but I'm going to go with a charitable interpretation. I seriously doubt that we'll ever hit a state where replacing a 2 ton vehicle is cheaper than repairing it. And if we do, I'll have to re-evaluate my charitable interpretation, because something shady is likely going on. The crazy thing is people don't e…

>I think the broader trend isn't what's cheapest, its what is easiest, even if its more expensive.

I don't think this is true. If this is the trend you're seeing it's probably because you're sampling through people with relatively high disposable income(or who don't mind endless credit card debt), who can just afford to throw away broken things when it's just a rounding error of their income.

But if you look at lower income people(with sane spending habits and financial literacy) you'll see how they first ask around if something can be repaired before they claw money from their checking account to buy something new.

My local facebook group is full of students asking if someone can fix their macbooks for cheap as they can't afford a new one or what Apple is quoting them, which is close in cost to buying a new one.

My minimum wage gf still had her barely functional Windows 7 notebook up until a year ago because she didn't feel like spending money to buy a new one if I could just keep fixing it.

Some broke people try not to buy new things if they can, but some are broke because they can't stop buying new things.

Re: CT scans of BYD car parts

#36

Post by pimlottc »

delichon wrote: post #27

> The last company to vertically integrate a car from raw material to finished product at this scale was Ford. Today BYD’s system runs all the way from the lithium mine to the port. Both BYD and Tesla claim to produce around 75% of their components. Ford is at around 25%. Tesla is indeed smaller in scale (cars/year): BYD 4.6M Ford 4.4M Tesla 1.6M

I assumed this was referring to the early days of the Ford assembly line

Re: CT scans of BYD car parts

#37

Post by numpad0 »

cyberax wrote: post #14
joe_mamba wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>This simplifies vehicles considerably. On the contrary, this much integration makes repairs nearly impossible, meaning you might have to swap the whole unit(for a lot of $$$) when something small inside it inevitably breaks. Check out the articles published by EVclinic that cover such cases. Aftermarket EV repairs are already big business due to how difficult and expensive the OEMs make it.

Why would it be less repairable? Power electronics are still modular and are easily swappable. Mechanical parts are more integrated, but they so simple that they can last for decades. And once they give out, you can just replace the whole unit for maybe $2000.

EU added "cybersecurity" requirements in response to Comma.ai that means that a lot of ECUs going forward use signed messages AND often crypto key pairing against an onboard security auth box. The pairing process often require something like a scuffed up manufacturer rental Panasonic Toughbook with weird half baked apps and passwords. The car would refuse to drive or whatever if the owner wouldn't play along with that game.

Re: CT scans of BYD car parts

#38

Post by delichon »

pimlottc wrote: post #36
delichon wrote: post #27

> The last company to vertically integrate a car from raw material to finished product at this scale was Ford. Today BYD’s system runs all the way from the lithium mine to the port. Both BYD and Tesla claim to produce around 75% of their components. Ford is at around 25%. Tesla is indeed smaller in scale (cars/year): BYD 4.6M Ford 4.4M Tesla 1.6M

I assumed this was referring to the early days of the Ford assembly line

Yes, Ford claimed up to 90% in the 1930s when they were producing up to 1.4M cars and trucks per year. (Down to less than 400K in the worst of the depression.)

Re: CT scans of BYD car parts

#39

Post by phinnaeus »

pimlottc wrote: post #29
zakisaad wrote: post #18

This was stated about the key: "Folded into the base is a mechanical backup key, a flat metal blade in a hinged housing." I own a BYD: this is not true. The key is not hinged; rather, the entire mechanical key pulls out when a small clip is unlatched near the top of the assembly (you can see it in the CT). I assume the circular hinge-looking mechanism in the CT is just a by product of the plastic/metal weld process.…

Having a mechanical key hidden in the electronic key fob is nothing new, it’s common on many cars.

I remember playing with my parent's VW key fob as a fidget toy in the 00s. Little spring loaded switchblade style mechanical key.

Re: CT scans of BYD car parts

#40

Post by jbm »

lowbloodsugar wrote: post #12
joe_mamba wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>This simplifies vehicles considerably. On the contrary, this much integration makes repairs nearly impossible, meaning you might have to swap the whole unit(for a lot of $$$) when something small inside it inevitably breaks. Check out the articles published by EVclinic that cover such cases. Aftermarket EV repairs are already big business due to how difficult and expensive the OEMs make it.

Most of those stories are 1/ crashes and 2/ hybrids. Again, with rare exception, manufacturers are just making gas cars with EV power trains. Tesla and BYD are making next gen transport. Are you old enough to remember when TVs broke so often that TV Repairman was a job? One day we will look back on car mechanics the same way. I do remember the visceral joy of trying to keep a supercharged Camaro on the track, but tho…

I own a Model 3 and I like driving it, but I scratch my head at everyone who claims there are no mechanical problems. I'm glad you didn't have any, but there are some repairs that are almost obscenely common.

In the past year, the heater failed (PTC Heater had to be replaced), and the lateral link ball joint ball joint had to be replaced. That is about CAD5000$ worth of work. There is also an issue with a wire in the rear center seatbelt that broke (but after a check, it doesn't really have any safety concerns wrt airbags so it is OK to leave as is), and the top roof glass cracked. (I also had to replace the front windshield, but that's normal in Calgary and I don't hold it against the car)

I'm not "rough handling", I have a Toyota Sienna without any of these problems. On the bright side, the battery has no problems and no imbalances so fixing it will keep the car running for years (hopefully).

I bring this up because I find it very annoying that people were painting hagiographies of these cars when they have real issues. None of the issues above should be happening. Moreover, there are no 3rd parties providing parts (supposedly because of patents).

In the end, I'll never buy another gas car again but my cute tiny car has a bigger turn radius than my Sienna. It's lost more value than my Sienna. I agree with the poster who said that it isn't even clear if Tesla is interested in cars anymore.

If BYD is also creating cars that are expensive to maintain, then hard pass. I'm ok with having legislation to fix this.

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