I rode Elon Musk's Vegas Loop, the worst transit system on Earth • Hacker News Board

Re: I rode Elon Musk's Vegas Loop, the worst transit system on Earth

#21

Post by amluto » Tue, Jun 02, 2026, 4:14 PM UTC

aeternum wrote: post #15

jraph wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is its optimal use case and how is it better than good old subway? (asking a bit naively, it's the first time I hear about it)

Imagine if the subway car you were riding in could detach from the train, take an exit tunnel to the surface streets then drop you off within a block from your house. AVs in tunnels allow for a wide range of density from 2-seater to high density bus/train-car like vehicles that can convoy through tunnels but still do point-to-point and on-demand. The main challenge is convincing the train-obsessed that 3d travel is b…

It sounds like the Loop, as it currently exists, is not actually able to do any of the above. It can take you from an unpleasant “station” to another one. This limitation isn’t fundamental, but it is still a limitation of the system as built.

As for the idea of a convoy of magic cars, it’s a nice idea but I don’t think it holds up to actual math. Specifically, area used. There are plenty of variants of this graphic, and here’s a tongue in cheek one:

https://xkcd.com/2684/

The fundamental issue is that individual low-capacity vehicles are large and use lane space inefficiently. Sure, perfect self driving might improve the situation, maybe by a factor of two or, extremely optimistically, a little more. But a factor of two isn’t really good enough.

Consider the 405 freeway in Los Angeles through the Sepulveda pass. It carries over 300k passengers per day (I’m not sure whether this counts Sepulveda Blvd as well, but, either way, we’re talking about 12+ traffic lanes), and traffic sucks. Maybe really advanced self driving could double capacity. Sticking a freeway lane in a narrow tunnel does nothing to speed it up or increase capacity.

In contrast, Wikipedia’s estimate of light rail capacity is about 8x as high for a rail track as compared to a lane of traffic. A single pair of light rail tracks could perform comparably to the entire Sepulveda Pass mess of roads. If actual intelligent, retroactive planning happened, there would be four tracks for one express and one local each way, New York style, and the whole assembly would be quieter, cheaper, far faster (at least during rush hour), and use massively less energy. But self-driving Teslas would not get most of those gains.

(E-bikes and the kind of culture that would get a hundred thousand or so people to ride them over the pass on their commute would also do the trick, but good luck with that. Although… the pass isn’t that long, and maybe Dutch-style levels of dedication to cycling might actually make it work. Los Angeles with real bike infrastructure would be quite a sight!)

Re: I rode Elon Musk's Vegas Loop, the worst transit system on Earth

#22

Post by mikaTheThird » Tue, Jun 02, 2026, 4:17 PM UTC

aeternum wrote: post #15

jraph wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is its optimal use case and how is it better than good old subway? (asking a bit naively, it's the first time I hear about it)

Imagine if the subway car you were riding in could detach from the train, take an exit tunnel to the surface streets then drop you off within a block from your house. AVs in tunnels allow for a wide range of density from 2-seater to high density bus/train-car like vehicles that can convoy through tunnels but still do point-to-point and on-demand. The main challenge is convincing the train-obsessed that 3d travel is b…

1. If my vehicle can be detached from the convoy, why even attach in the first place. Just get me to my destination as efficiently as possible. Also being dropped a block from your house doesn't really sell it.

2. Aren't AVs suppose to greatly alleviate the traffic problem on existing roads since AVs can/will coordinate efficiently. I'm actually surprised that the loop doesn't operate autonomously and requires drivers

3. Wouldn't flying cars be the ultimate 3D model, as oppose to digging limited tunnels.

Re: I rode Elon Musk's Vegas Loop, the worst transit system on Earth

#23

Post by zippothrowaway » Tue, Jun 02, 2026, 4:20 PM UTC

cornholio wrote: post #8

It's interesting how Loop criticism has evolved over the years: initially, it was claimed Boring Co has no chance of duplicating or significantly improving on the speed and cost of state of the art used by tunneling companies, or that the entire concept is fundamentally impossible or cost-prohibitive to build. After building the first stations, it changed to capacity concerns or that it's not Hyperloop, an completely…

As a Vegas local I'll say the criticism evolved into "I'm never riding in that death trap after I found out how they skirted fire department approvals".

There is as yet no fire department vehicle that can enter the tunnel. And from here [1]

"Evacuation procedure basically consist of driving the car out of the tunnel, via the next station. If evacuation must be made in the opposite direction, the manual says the driver must await instructions from the OCC, as they are not generally permitted to drive in reverse."

[1] https://computer.rip/2024-08-12-a-pedantic-review-of-the-las...

Re: I rode Elon Musk's Vegas Loop, the worst transit system on Earth

#24

Post by jraph » Tue, Jun 02, 2026, 4:33 PM UTC

aeternum wrote: post #15

jraph wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is its optimal use case and how is it better than good old subway? (asking a bit naively, it's the first time I hear about it)

Imagine if the subway car you were riding in could detach from the train, take an exit tunnel to the surface streets then drop you off within a block from your house. AVs in tunnels allow for a wide range of density from 2-seater to high density bus/train-car like vehicles that can convoy through tunnels but still do point-to-point and on-demand. The main challenge is convincing the train-obsessed that 3d travel is b…

> The main challenge is convincing the train-obsessed that 3d travel is better than 1d travel.

I suppose you do that by making the system as convenient and efficient (cost effective both for the operator and the users, energy efficient, good capacity, good speed, not more wasteful hardware wise, good longevity in the long run) as, or more than a properly setup train system?

Another commenter has a good point though, in a place that's not willing to invest in good public transport, there's a void to fill I suppose.

Re: I rode Elon Musk's Vegas Loop, the worst transit system on Earth

#25

Post by beardyw » Tue, Jun 02, 2026, 4:34 PM UTC

I use the London tube (112 miles of it underground) quite often and it is the lines which cross the center which I use most often, and from what I can tell a lot of people do the same. The new east west Elizabeth Line is now heavily used.

Re: I rode Elon Musk's Vegas Loop, the worst transit system on Earth

#26

Post by cornholio » Tue, Jun 02, 2026, 5:48 PM UTC

deepvibrations wrote: post #16

cornholio wrote: post #8

It's interesting how Loop criticism has evolved over the years: initially, it was claimed Boring Co has no chance of duplicating or significantly improving on the speed and cost of state of the art used by tunneling companies, or that the entire concept is fundamentally impossible or cost-prohibitive to build. After building the first stations, it changed to capacity concerns or that it's not Hyperloop, an completely…

Since when did the Loop demonstrate it could beat subway systems? A heavy rail subway line can transport 30,000+ people per hour compared to vegas loop which maxes out at 4500 people/hr. Plus every single Tesla in the tunnel requires a human driver, unlike trains. Even IF Elon managed to create these larger Tesla vans, they won't reach those numbers on a single route.

Loop demonstrated 4500 people per hour with Teslas with human drivers. Hence, the assertion that it can be competitive with most light rail systems is entirely reasonable, assuming, as I said, "they get adequate, automated, larger vehicles". For example, the much hyped but so elusive Robovans.

The largest subways in the world can reach 80,000 pphpd (crush load) but the vast majority of US systems are under 20k, and those are numbers Loop can likely reach with larger vehicles:

https://www.reddit.com/r/BoringCompany/comments/s4r6l4/chart...

Only a handful of the largest US systems really hit the capacities the only heavy rail subways can support, and they do so with eye watering costs, see the famous $2.5 billion mile in New York's Second Avenue extension. So a $10-20mil/mile system with 1/4-1/2 the capacity of a full subway could, if demonstrated, completely change the game in many cities.

Re: I rode Elon Musk's Vegas Loop, the worst transit system on Earth

#27

Post by Zigurd » Tue, Jun 02, 2026, 7:02 PM UTC

cornholio wrote: post #26

deepvibrations wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Since when did the Loop demonstrate it could beat subway systems? A heavy rail subway line can transport 30,000+ people per hour compared to vegas loop which maxes out at 4500 people/hr. Plus every single Tesla in the tunnel requires a human driver, unlike trains. Even IF Elon managed to create these larger Tesla vans, they won't reach those numbers on a single route.

Loop demonstrated 4500 people per hour with Teslas with human drivers. Hence, the assertion that it can be competitive with most light rail systems is entirely reasonable, assuming, as I said, " they get adequate, automated, larger vehicles ". For example, the much hyped but so elusive Robovans. The largest subways in the world can reach 80,000 pphpd (crush load) but the vast majority of US systems are under 20k, and…

> Loop demonstrated 4500 people per hour with Teslas with human drivers

In what K hole did that happen? All of the experiences I have heard of involve multi minutes long waits for a car to arrive, and then time to load the car and unload at the far end. That adds up to dozens of people per hour if they are lined up and organized waiting to get in a car. Low hundreds per day, on a busy day is barely plausible.

Re: I rode Elon Musk's Vegas Loop, the worst transit system on Earth

#28

Post by cornholio » Tue, Jun 02, 2026, 7:14 PM UTC

Zigurd wrote: post #27

cornholio wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Loop demonstrated 4500 people per hour with Teslas with human drivers. Hence, the assertion that it can be competitive with most light rail systems is entirely reasonable, assuming, as I said, " they get adequate, automated, larger vehicles ". For example, the much hyped but so elusive Robovans. The largest subways in the world can reach 80,000 pphpd (crush load) but the vast majority of US systems are under 20k, and…

> Loop demonstrated 4500 people per hour with Teslas with human drivers In what K hole did that happen? All of the experiences I have heard of involve multi minutes long waits for a car to arrive, and then time to load the car and unload at the far end. That adds up to dozens of people per hour if they are lined up and organized waiting to get in a car. Low hundreds per day, on a busy day is barely plausible.

Hitting almost 4000 was a requirement of the LVCC bid and they actually hit 4400.

This is all public info available from unbiased sources; preferring schadenfreude and rage inducing bait is, of course, a choice you are entitled to.

Re: I rode Elon Musk's Vegas Loop, the worst transit system on Earth

#29

Post by Zigurd » Tue, Jun 02, 2026, 8:04 PM UTC

cornholio wrote: post #28

Zigurd wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Loop demonstrated 4500 people per hour with Teslas with human drivers In what K hole did that happen? All of the experiences I have heard of involve multi minutes long waits for a car to arrive, and then time to load the car and unload at the far end. That adds up to dozens of people per hour if they are lined up and organized waiting to get in a car. Low hundreds per day, on a busy day is barely plausible.

Hitting almost 4000 was a requirement of the LVCC bid and they actually hit 4400. This is all public info available from unbiased sources; preferring schadenfreude and rage inducing bait is, of course, a choice you are entitled to.

YouTube has many videos of people trying out the Vegas loop. None of them show something that possibly scales to 4400 riders per hour.

Re: I rode Elon Musk's Vegas Loop, the worst transit system on Earth

#30

Post by Zigurd » Tue, Jun 02, 2026, 8:18 PM UTC

zippothrowaway wrote: post #23

cornholio wrote: post #8

It's interesting how Loop criticism has evolved over the years: initially, it was claimed Boring Co has no chance of duplicating or significantly improving on the speed and cost of state of the art used by tunneling companies, or that the entire concept is fundamentally impossible or cost-prohibitive to build. After building the first stations, it changed to capacity concerns or that it's not Hyperloop, an completely…

As a Vegas local I'll say the criticism evolved into "I'm never riding in that death trap after I found out how they skirted fire department approvals". There is as yet no fire department vehicle that can enter the tunnel. And from here [1] "Evacuation procedure basically consist of driving the car out of the tunnel, via the next station. If evacuation must be made in the opposite direction, the manual says the drive…

> "I'm never riding in that death trap after I found out how they skirted fire department approvals"

This is why only a small number of cars will ever be in the Vegas loop tunnels. If there were any risk of a collision or a disabled vehicle that would prevent other vehicles from exiting a tunnel, that would be an unsafe and unacceptable outcome.

Not only do subways have a real world measured capacity that is 4X Boring's claimed theoretical capacity, that theoretical capacity would never be allowed to exist in the real world for safety reasons. It's something like 20X the real world safe-ish capacity. 4400 per hour would require hundreds of people in the tunnels at the same time, with no emergency exits.