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Preparing for KDE Plasma's Last X11-Supported Release

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Re: Preparing for KDE Plasma's Last X11-Supported Release

#101

Post by kombine »

alyandon wrote: post #52
moritzruth wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When was the last time you tried? What compositor?

I stick with LTS releases so last honest attempt would have been on a Kubuntu 24.04 LTS system. What is a compositor - thing that actually draws window content on the screen? Whatever KDE provides? Edit: To be fair to KDE/Wayland, the Wayland Kubuntu 24.04 experience was vastly improved over Kubuntu 22.04.

You are using a 3 year old Plasma release (5.27). Give the latest Plasma a try and you should hopefully be positively surprised.

Re: Preparing for KDE Plasma's Last X11-Supported Release

#102

Post by spider-mario »

MBCook wrote: post #32
jebenesty wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Did you really just [sic] a British guy using British spelling?

Is that a British spelling? Oops. Honestly my computer gave it a red underline so I decided to do that. I didn’t think about it harder than that. If I recognized it like “colour” I wouldn’t have.

It would be a good habit to check (for example on the Wiktionary – I have a Chrome search keyword dedicated to that) because those are not the only differences.

fulfill vs. fulfil

judgment vs. judgement

disk vs. disc (https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/disk#Usage_notes)

hiccup vs. hiccough

diarrhea vs. diarrhoea

Re: Preparing for KDE Plasma's Last X11-Supported Release

#103

Post by pseudalopex »

Plasma/Wayland Known Significant Issues[1]

No ability to save and restore positions of native Wayland windows

Real-fake-session-restored apps don't remember which virtual desktop their windows were on

No full-screen aspect ratio correction

"Spare Layouts" feature not implemented

"Per-application Keyboard Layout" does not work

No way to change the gamma or manually adjust the colors without generating or finding an appropriate ICC profile

Can't switch between multiple touch strip modes

No headless RDP

Opening files using command-line binaries in Konsole doesn't raise existing windows

Global Menu is not supported for non-Qt apps

Some apps' non-maximizable windows are broken with placement policy set as maximized

[1] https://community.kde.org/Plasma/Wayland_Known_Significant_I...

Re: Preparing for KDE Plasma's Last X11-Supported Release

#104

Post by DonHopkins »

em-bee wrote: post #86
DonHopkins wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Using these toolkits is like trying to make a bookshelf out of mashed potatoes." -Jamie Zawinski https://donhopkins.medium.com/the-x-windows-disaster-128d398...

i'd be interested on your take on the graphical interface of plan9.

It needs pie menus!

Re: Preparing for KDE Plasma's Last X11-Supported Release

#105

Post by porridgeraisin »

thesuitonym wrote: post #80
idoubtit wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not too bad? A hidden procedure with ten clicks, which the user has to repeat for each web browser. And it may break at any time if the browser changes some details. Or if KDE changes. And it's specific to KDE, with no alternatives in most Wayland WMs. All that for _one_ feature which works out-of-the-box with Xorg, and which Wayland removed for security reasons. From what I've seen, sharing the screen is another com…

Look, I'm not a Wayland booster, I still prefer X11 most of the time, but this is really the way it should work. Applications should not be allowed to dictate how windows appear. That is the job of the window manager. Chrome's PIP is a stupid workaround for Windows and Mac because they do not have robust window management.

This is the issue with imposing semantics of the programming model on the behaviour.

User behaviour is the only _real_ thing, it happens. Everything else is in your head. If people in the real world use PiP, then it should happen. The programming model has to bend and change to support it. It simply does not matter if the window manager does something or the window does something.

Sure, there is always the security argument wayland folks fall back to. But what ever is the problem with making a one-time permission popup? "Google Chrome wants to open in PiP: allow | allow once.". Just expose the existing PiP code in the window manager as an API guarded with an `if` that apps can call. It's not even that much real work, just pure bikeshedding and architecture astronauting.

Re: Preparing for KDE Plasma's Last X11-Supported Release

#106

Post by fhars »

bityard wrote: post #45
ndiddy wrote: post #2

I think the KDE developers in particular have done a great job of pushing Wayland forward and getting features that people want and need added as new protocols. KDE feels a lot smoother and more responsive when using Wayland than when using X11, and by this point most stuff has been updated to work properly on Wayland so I don't notice any breakage or missing features in day-to-day usage. > Moving forward with a sing…

When I upgraded from Debian 12 to 13 on my personal laptop running KDE, I knew that the switch from X11 to Wayland would happen and was braced for all kinds of issues, like every other time I tried to switch to Wayland in previous years. Instead, I could tell literally no difference. Multiple desktops works fine, scaling works fine, screen capture works fine, old apps work fine, literally everything works just fine.…

On the other hand, I recently installed a system with debian 13, and it was really easy to distinguish between X11 and wayland sessions: if the session displays a plasma desktop, it's X11, if it crashes on login, it is wayland. YMMV if you try to switch to wayland.

Re: Preparing for KDE Plasma's Last X11-Supported Release

#107

Post by thesuitonym »

senfiaj wrote: post #85
thesuitonym wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Look, I'm not a Wayland booster, I still prefer X11 most of the time, but this is really the way it should work. Applications should not be allowed to dictate how windows appear. That is the job of the window manager. Chrome's PIP is a stupid workaround for Windows and Mac because they do not have robust window management.

>> Chrome's PIP is a stupid workaround for Windows and Mac because they do not have robust window management. What are you talking about? It's very convenient when I watch video while I do some work or entertaining thing on other web page or app. It's fine if you don't want to use it but many people do.

Yes, it's fine, but it shouldn't be necessary. If Windows and Mac OS just had native support for always-on-top windows, you wouldn't need it.

Re: Preparing for KDE Plasma's Last X11-Supported Release

#108

Post by thesuitonym »

porridgeraisin wrote: post #105
thesuitonym wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Look, I'm not a Wayland booster, I still prefer X11 most of the time, but this is really the way it should work. Applications should not be allowed to dictate how windows appear. That is the job of the window manager. Chrome's PIP is a stupid workaround for Windows and Mac because they do not have robust window management.

This is the issue with imposing semantics of the programming model on the behaviour. User behaviour is the only _real_ thing, it happens. Everything else is in your head. If people in the real world use PiP, then it should happen. The programming model has to bend and change to support it. It simply does not matter if the window manager does something or the window does something. Sure, there is always the security a…

Right right, and I'm not saying users shouldn't be able to have a floating window with video (or whatever) in it. I'm saying it shouldn't be Chrome making that window floating and always visible.

Re: Preparing for KDE Plasma's Last X11-Supported Release

#109

Post by mixmastamyk »

ndiddy wrote: post #37
senfiaj wrote: post #8

What's sad is that after many years Wayland still lacks several things/features that X11 has/allows. Some of them are intentionally not implemented because of security paranoia. For example, Chrome "picture in picture" window doesn't stay on top when I click somewhere else since Wayland doesn't allow windows to stay on top. If I had a lot of time I could list how Wayland breaks many applications. Not saying that X11…

If you use KDE, you can work around this because of the powerful feature set the window manager has for setting custom window behavior. 1. Right click the PIP window and then click "More Actions-> Special Window Settings". 2. On the window that pops up, click "Add Property", and add "Window title". Change the drop-down from "Unimportant" to "Exact match" (this works on Firefox because the window title is always "Pict…

I tried this for getting windows to open where I want them instead of the center of the screen. Couldn't figure it out in five minutes. Though I'll probably try again, this shouldn't be a problem.

Re: Preparing for KDE Plasma's Last X11-Supported Release

#110

Post by porridgeraisin »

thesuitonym wrote: post #108
porridgeraisin wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is the issue with imposing semantics of the programming model on the behaviour. User behaviour is the only _real_ thing, it happens. Everything else is in your head. If people in the real world use PiP, then it should happen. The programming model has to bend and change to support it. It simply does not matter if the window manager does something or the window does something. Sure, there is always the security a…

Right right, and I'm not saying users shouldn't be able to have a floating window with video (or whatever) in it. I'm saying it shouldn't be Chrome making that window floating and always visible.

I don't get it, if you're on google meet, and you want to make one of many videos PiP. How can you ever do that in the window manager? It has to be done in the application! You right click or click on the menu on that particular video, and click Picture in picture.

How the heck can the window manager do it?

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