until the next one
Preparing for KDE Plasma's Last X11-Supported Release
71–80 of 392 posts
Re: Preparing for KDE Plasma's Last X11-Supported Release
#72This is a huge blow to accessibility on linux since KDE is such a large marketshare. There is no support for accessibility for the visually (or otherwise) disabled in KDE Plasma's wayland extensions (and none in core wayland at all). It's frankly shocking to me that they would go ahead with this. Even if one doesn't care about the lives of the disabled KDE is now ruled out of workplaces and institutions in the USA be…
> There is no support for accessibility for the visually (or otherwise) disabled in KDE Plasma's wayland extensions (and none in core wayland at all
Can you clarify what you mean by this? In the process of KDE implementing Wayland support I also have seen several issues and blog posts dedicated to accessibility features. In fact, I am fairly sure I saw KDE explicitly funding accessibility development in relation Wayland a while ago.
I am using KDE with Wayland and just had a look in my settings and the Accessibility menu is there and the features in there also appear to be working. Including the screenreader which worked on all windows I had open at the time.
Which makes sense as none of that goes through the display server but rather a D-Bus protocol implemented by Qt and GTK as far as my understanding goes.
There is a bunch of stuff that came with X11 "for free" like access easier screen capture for magnifiers, input injection, etc but as far as my understanding goes KDE (just like GNOME) has been working on DE specific implementations of each.
I am not saying things are perfect right now as far as accessibility goes. I am not someone who depends on these features. I also know that things are in fact not perfect across the board and there is still work to be done. But the claim that there is no support for accessibility seems like a rather large hyperbole to me.
Re: Preparing for KDE Plasma's Last X11-Supported Release
#73Earlier quoted context omitted.
When was the last time you tried? What compositor?
I stick with LTS releases so last honest attempt would have been on a Kubuntu 24.04 LTS system. What is a compositor - thing that actually draws window content on the screen? Whatever KDE provides? Edit: To be fair to KDE/Wayland, the Wayland Kubuntu 24.04 experience was vastly improved over Kubuntu 22.04.
They've made major strides in the last two years. Give the next LTS a shot and I think you'll agree.
Re: Preparing for KDE Plasma's Last X11-Supported Release
#74Earlier quoted context omitted.
nmtui
Thanks for the recommendation, but "nmtui" is also the most Linux answer you could have given me :) And it completely misses the point. Yes, there’s a lightweight tool for everything, but the appeal of KDE is that I don’t need to know. It mostly just works, is extendable and configurable. But i also understand the appeal of staying minimal. The thing is, i want some kind of middleground: I want a simple tiling window…
I have jgmenu mapped to F4 but I never remember to use it. I usually just CMD+P and type what I need.
I can see the appeal of KDE - I just got fed up of things breaking when I did mandatory upgrades for security. I don't have to choose between stability and security. After 10+ years, I would find it harder to go pecking through menus for what I need when I can just type it.
Re: Preparing for KDE Plasma's Last X11-Supported Release
#75I think the KDE developers in particular have done a great job of pushing Wayland forward and getting features that people want and need added as new protocols. KDE feels a lot smoother and more responsive when using Wayland than when using X11, and by this point most stuff has been updated to work properly on Wayland so I don't notice any breakage or missing features in day-to-day usage. > Moving forward with a sing…
> KDE feels a lot smoother and more responsive when using Wayland than when using X11 Or, the X11 code is more complex and they prefer Wayland because it is simpler. Fewer features. Is it a surprise that wayland would be faster, if it does less? > by this point most stuff has been updated to work properly on Wayland Really? Strange how comments on reddit do not confirm this. Admittedly they did fix various issues. I…
"Using these toolkits is like trying to make a bookshelf out of mashed potatoes." -Jamie Zawinski
https://donhopkins.medium.com/the-x-windows-disaster-128d398...
Re: Preparing for KDE Plasma's Last X11-Supported Release
#76Does anyone know if there is any progress on window shading on Wayland? I miss it like crazy.
Re: Preparing for KDE Plasma's Last X11-Supported Release
#77What's sad is that after many years Wayland still lacks several things/features that X11 has/allows. Some of them are intentionally not implemented because of security paranoia. For example, Chrome "picture in picture" window doesn't stay on top when I click somewhere else since Wayland doesn't allow windows to stay on top. If I had a lot of time I could list how Wayland breaks many applications. Not saying that X11…
If you use KDE, you can work around this because of the powerful feature set the window manager has for setting custom window behavior. 1. Right click the PIP window and then click "More Actions-> Special Window Settings". 2. On the window that pops up, click "Add Property", and add "Window title". Change the drop-down from "Unimportant" to "Exact match" (this works on Firefox because the window title is always "Pict…
Not too bad? A hidden procedure with ten clicks, which the user has to repeat for each web browser. And it may break at any time if the browser changes some details. Or if KDE changes. And it's specific to KDE, with no alternatives in most Wayland WMs.
All that for _one_ feature which works out-of-the-box with Xorg, and which Wayland removed for security reasons. From what I've seen, sharing the screen is another common feature which was broken with Wayland and is still painful.
I don't think Wayland's security model is very relevant to me since I have faith in Debian for filtering out rogue applications. So I have to reason to drop my smooth UX for a world of "not too bad" workarounds.
Re: Preparing for KDE Plasma's Last X11-Supported Release
#78What's sad is that after many years Wayland still lacks several things/features that X11 has/allows. Some of them are intentionally not implemented because of security paranoia. For example, Chrome "picture in picture" window doesn't stay on top when I click somewhere else since Wayland doesn't allow windows to stay on top. If I had a lot of time I could list how Wayland breaks many applications. Not saying that X11…
If you use KDE, you can work around this because of the powerful feature set the window manager has for setting custom window behavior. 1. Right click the PIP window and then click "More Actions-> Special Window Settings". 2. On the window that pops up, click "Add Property", and add "Window title". Change the drop-down from "Unimportant" to "Exact match" (this works on Firefox because the window title is always "Pict…
Wow, I guess Linux is only free if you don't value your time.
Re: Preparing for KDE Plasma's Last X11-Supported Release
#79I think the KDE developers in particular have done a great job of pushing Wayland forward and getting features that people want and need added as new protocols. KDE feels a lot smoother and more responsive when using Wayland than when using X11, and by this point most stuff has been updated to work properly on Wayland so I don't notice any breakage or missing features in day-to-day usage. > Moving forward with a sing…
When I upgraded from Debian 12 to 13 on my personal laptop running KDE, I knew that the switch from X11 to Wayland would happen and was braced for all kinds of issues, like every other time I tried to switch to Wayland in previous years. Instead, I could tell literally no difference. Multiple desktops works fine, scaling works fine, screen capture works fine, old apps work fine, literally everything works just fine.…
I think I noticed lower latency, more consistent frame pacing (recent-ish improvement in KWin) and a more "solid" feel because everything in a frame is synchronized. On X11, you can have things like border and contents of a window not matching exactly while resizing. An early principle of Wayland was "Every frame is perfect", which is clearly reflected in how e.g. window resizing works.
Re: Preparing for KDE Plasma's Last X11-Supported Release
#80Earlier quoted context omitted.
If you use KDE, you can work around this because of the powerful feature set the window manager has for setting custom window behavior. 1. Right click the PIP window and then click "More Actions-> Special Window Settings". 2. On the window that pops up, click "Add Property", and add "Window title". Change the drop-down from "Unimportant" to "Exact match" (this works on Firefox because the window title is always "Pict…
Not too bad? A hidden procedure with ten clicks, which the user has to repeat for each web browser. And it may break at any time if the browser changes some details. Or if KDE changes. And it's specific to KDE, with no alternatives in most Wayland WMs. All that for _one_ feature which works out-of-the-box with Xorg, and which Wayland removed for security reasons. From what I've seen, sharing the screen is another com…
Look, I'm not a Wayland booster, I still prefer X11 most of the time, but this is really the way it should work. Applications should not be allowed to dictate how windows appear. That is the job of the window manager. Chrome's PIP is a stupid workaround for Windows and Mac because they do not have robust window management.