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Age verification for social media, the beginning of the end for a free internet?

mullvad.net

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Re: Age verification for social media, the beginning of the end for a free internet?

#241

Post by Nasrudith »

coldtea wrote: post #216
jenscow wrote: post #215

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I won't disagree with that. And "better parenting" is a solution. However, what about the children who don't have the advantage of "better parenting"? Rightfully blaming bad parents is reactionary

> Rightfully blaming bad parents is reactionary So? Not all reactionary (if you mean "conservative") takes are bad. Sometimes they're better than the alternative: accepting bad parenting as some default and working around it with technological restrictions.

"Reactionary"'s origins as far are pure political DARVO and gaslighting anyway. It originated in the French revolution and basically declared "You are morally wrong for being horrified at my horrific and evil actions." That origin tainted the term for me personally.

The actual modern reactionary meaning of "referrant to a mythical past as a standard" always felt like it deserved a better term. But nobody would get what you were saying if you called them a "fairytaleland resident" or similar.

Re: Age verification for social media, the beginning of the end for a free internet?

#242

Post by Hizonner »

armchairhacker wrote: post #146

Age verification is fine , at least in theory. It’s the implementations that are bad. More and more people agree that kids shouldn’t be on modern social media, including me. But most people also agree that mass surveillance is dangerous. The solution is to propose ways to block kids from modern social media (that actually works) without mass surveillance. Better parental controls, more parental education, and site-sp…

> More and more people agree that kids shouldn’t be on modern social media, including me.

Has it occurred to you that nobody cares, or should care, about your opinions about what other people and other people's kids do? You and the "more and more" people who agree with you are cordially invited to fuck off.

> The solution is to propose ways to block kids from modern social media (that actually works) without mass surveillance.

The solution is for you to get over your bullshit, not to chase impossible pipe dreams.

Re: Age verification for social media, the beginning of the end for a free internet?

#243

Post by Nasrudith »

intended wrote: post #218
sunaookami wrote: post #185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, age-verification IS bad and is a slippery slope that will always lead to surveillance. If we don't stop this now everything will get worse. And trying to lump this in with other extreme rhetoric doesn't help. The answer is and always was "better parenting".

HN is filled with people who are on the other side of an "internet best practices" information divide. For everyone else, the internet is already a shit show and a half. They want control, because it means putting a stop to being predated upon, or more nihilistically, harming the firms that are harming them. I don't know how to let other commenters see how bad it is, or make the gulf in view points clear.

Giving up control is always a mistake - they never do what they promised and you never get back the control. There is never a refutation to this fac: just a childish "But I want it!".

Re: Age verification for social media, the beginning of the end for a free internet?

#244

Post by squigz »

lmz wrote: post #209
Hugsbox wrote: post #206

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't believe children should be on social media. Some other people might not share that belief. Should be up to parents to decide what's okay for their kids, not governments or companies. Age verification will always lead to more surveillance. People need to just be more mindful of what their children are doing online, maybe stop giving them smartphones, and just be parents .

Somehow this "leave it to the parents" logic isn't followed when it comes to cigarettes or alcohol. Why is social media different?

Maybe because they're not comparable.

Re: Age verification for social media, the beginning of the end for a free internet?

#245

Post by Nasrudith »

ares623 wrote: post #106

If (big if) governments really wanted to help parents and children in any meaningful way, they would ban the actual hardware used to give constant access to these platforms. The ability to seamlessly record, upload, comment, react on _everything_, _everwhere_, _all the time_ is not natural, and not necessary. Let them keep the devices, whatever, but remove the internet access. Or keep the internet access, but remove…

That is what they would do if they wanted UFO sightings back and police brutality evidence disappearing.

Re: Age verification for social media, the beginning of the end for a free internet?

#246

Post by Hizonner »

swiftcoder wrote: post #139
sshine wrote: post #128

It would be an excellent case for zero-knowledge cryptography: All that you need to know is that I am above 18 years of age. You don't need to know how old I am, what my birthday is, what state I was born in, my gender, or when my passport expires. The downside with ZK cryptography is the complexity. Something would have to be insanely inconvenient to justify it.

> It would be an excellent case for zero-knowledge cryptography: The last ~third of the article is about the EU's zero-knowledge approach

You mean the EU's fake snake oil zero-knowledge approach.

They've standardized two systems under the banner of "zero knowledge". One is actually zero knowledge. The other is trust-me snake oil. Guess which one is getting deployment.

Re: Age verification for social media, the beginning of the end for a free internet?

#247

Post by Nasrudith »

palata wrote: post #159
JohnMakin wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is a solution, it is regulating social media companies to stop abusing their users, and by extension, children. strict laws around adtech and tracking tech. more consumer rights, in other words - that’s why this solution comes off as authoritarian, because there is such a variety of ways to tackle this problem, and this is the most authoritarian one.

> there is such a variety of ways to tackle this problem, and this is the most authoritarian one. If you think that privacy-preserving age verification is the most authoritarian way to tackle this problem, then you really, really don't understand authoritarianism. Now if you have tons of better and practical solutions to tackle this problem, I would suggest you start writing about them. I haven't read a lot about tho…

If you are naive enough to think it really is 'just the tip' how are you not an involuntary parent already?

Re: Age verification for social media, the beginning of the end for a free internet?

#248

Post by Hizonner »

palata wrote: post #169
userbinator wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Many people genuinely want to find a solution that is better for the children, and telling them "if you are open to age verification you are either a fascist or a moron" is not constructive. We know they'll take a mile if you give them an inch. Ditto with "trusted" computing and the rest of that wormcan. That's why the opposition has to be absolute.

I strongly disagree. Democracy is not "they" vs "us". Democracy is not "opposition has to be absolute". What you describe here is extremism. If you believe that anyone disagreeing with you is an extremist and that the only viable way to react is to be an extremist yourself, well... you are the extremist. Whether you are fighting extremists or not (this "they" you conveniently do not define) is unclear, though.

Don't be an extremist. Let's compromise. We'll only eat one of your children. We'll even let you pick!

Re: Age verification for social media, the beginning of the end for a free internet?

#249

Post by jvvw »

As a parent of teenagers, I feel like the sites make it hard for parents.

When they were young, you had a choice between YouTube being completely locked down with no option to whitelist channels or letting them watch almost anything (although I think this has changed since but it's too late now for those of us with children that age).

Now, there is no way I can whitelist contact/groups on WhatsApp or Discord servers/friends. Once they hit 13, pretty much any option to restrict anything feels taken away from you as a parent.

Luckily, I have sensible children (I think!) but it's really hard as a parent trying to both be reasonably responsible, but not deny all technology, it's really hard to navigate a sensible course.

Re: Age verification for social media, the beginning of the end for a free internet?

#250

Post by palata »

Nasrudith wrote: post #247
palata wrote: post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> there is such a variety of ways to tackle this problem, and this is the most authoritarian one. If you think that privacy-preserving age verification is the most authoritarian way to tackle this problem, then you really, really don't understand authoritarianism. Now if you have tons of better and practical solutions to tackle this problem, I would suggest you start writing about them. I haven't read a lot about tho…

If you are naive enough to think it really is 'just the tip' how are you not an involuntary parent already?

I would love to be insulted by that, but I genuinely can't tell what point you're fumbling toward. Try again when you've sobered up.
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