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Cessation of public development of Kefir C compiler

kefir.protopopov.lv

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Re: Cessation of public development of Kefir C compiler

#21

Post by dzhiurgis »

irdc wrote: post #17
rgoulter wrote: post #9

Seems to me LLMs have changed some things. I'm not sure how it's best put, but it used to be: - Seeing code (or a blogpost or whatever) was a result from effort where thought had gone into it. The writer paid effort so the reader didn't have to. - There'd be some level of attachment to what you've put effort into. With LLMs, that's undermined: it's easy to produce thoughtless imitations. Code or comments where though…

But LLMs don’t seem particularly good at inventing new ways to code (or write, or…). It’s literally all derivative. So what happens in 10 years? Are we headed for a great stagnation?

It’s like arguing that nobody is going to invent new ways to ride horses in the age to automobile.

Re: Cessation of public development of Kefir C compiler

#22

Post by binaryturtle »

I'm also very hesitant to release any new works (code, artworks, etc.) to the public. I usually release code under the GPL or AGPL, but I don't think any of those choices are properly respected by the AI crawlers, and subsequent "mixing into" those models.

Multiple times I got partially broken "citations" of GPL licensed code out of the models as answers to basic research questions (aka prompts) w/o any mentioning of the original license applied to the code. Just adding some random bugs every 10th line doesn't make it not a direct derivate. Image generators happily generated Sonics or Bart Simpsons (w/o directly prompting for that either). No mentions that those are copyrighted characters either.

Re: Cessation of public development of Kefir C compiler

#23

Post by asibahi »

dzhiurgis wrote: post #21
irdc wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But LLMs don’t seem particularly good at inventing new ways to code (or write, or…). It’s literally all derivative. So what happens in 10 years? Are we headed for a great stagnation?

It’s like arguing that nobody is going to invent new ways to ride horses in the age to automobile.

You made me curious. Has anyone invented new ways to ride horses in the age of the automobile?

Re: Cessation of public development of Kefir C compiler

#24

Post by irdc »

dzhiurgis wrote: post #21
irdc wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But LLMs don’t seem particularly good at inventing new ways to code (or write, or…). It’s literally all derivative. So what happens in 10 years? Are we headed for a great stagnation?

It’s like arguing that nobody is going to invent new ways to ride horses in the age to automobile.

If the way humanity advances were via new ways to ride horses, then yes.

Re: Cessation of public development of Kefir C compiler

#25

Post by wizzwizz4 »

jagged-chisel wrote: post #7
kator wrote: post #3

> Yet, this shift made me re-evaluate the open source code publishing. Prior to that, I have been positive about free and open software, and considered this to be the default mode for work such as kefir. I did not require any justifications from myself to publish something. Now, however, I feel more and more that the main beneficiaries of my unpaid work are companies scraping the internet to train large language mode…

> The sender pays, not the receiver. You have a hole here. Your web server is sending the response and the bot is receiving . Fix that and … profit? :-)

I'm trying to compose a better wording, but my attempts aren't working. The best I've got is:

> The initiator of the communication pays, not the server operator.

Re: Cessation of public development of Kefir C compiler

#28

Post by nine_k »

TheOtherHobbes wrote: post #14
bjourne wrote: post #13

People taking your work and not giving anything back was ALWAYS the risk you took when writing free software. LLM training doesn't change that much. That the us military no doubt is using gcc to compile embedded software for their icbm:s no doubt irks the gnu people. But you can't have it any other way. "You can only use my software for good things" just is not consistent with "free software".

There's an almost intergalactic level of irony in the extent to which open source has benefited giant corporations and the military at the expense of individuals, and ultimately contributed to the commercialised enclosure of software IP. I suppose you could argue it also indirectly led to the empowerment of non-developers to create their own vibe coded solutions. But we're not quite there yet. And the AI IP that make…

Don't open-weight models sort of returning the favor?

Re: Cessation of public development of Kefir C compiler

#29

Post by VladVladikoff »

asibahi wrote: post #23
dzhiurgis wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s like arguing that nobody is going to invent new ways to ride horses in the age to automobile.

You made me curious. Has anyone invented new ways to ride horses in the age of the automobile?

Best I could find: https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/science.1174605

There was a relatively big shift in riding style right around the same time of the first mass production of vehicles.

Re: Cessation of public development of Kefir C compiler

#30

Post by keyle » 

   This project in particular has been unconcerned with new coding practices so far, primarily, because I derive pleasure from hand-written implementations of my ideas, and believe that overcoming challenges the hard way is the main value I get from it.
This 100% the same for me. Outside of work where speed is more important than quality, and I work with people that use AI, I don't use AI at all on my own projects. It poisons the mind and the soul. Ok that sounds dramatic, but I felt down up until the point where I started hand writing everything again. Software engineering is still fun and powerful, and the hell with where the world is going.
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