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A 10 year old Xeon is all you need

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Re: A 10 year old Xeon is all you need

#41

Post by skdb476 »

phaser wrote: post #31

What intrigues me the most about AI progress, is not AGI or the model du jour by $AI_UNICORN, but rather what can be run locally. I remember having an amusing, but rather useless model in a beefy gaming PC that I had 6 years ago; and now, something that’s a hundred times better on my M5 laptop. Should the market react to the memory shortage, the progress of the Apple silicon continue at the same pace, and what we’ll…

Its a convenience thing. You can run a whole lot of stuff locally from wikipedia to social media/email/video servers whatever. Most people with a full time job and 2 kids dont do it cause who has time and energy to patch and maintain the ever growing complexity of this stuff. These systems will keep growing complex. That also means more bugs. Age old tradeoff between freedom and convenience.

Re: A 10 year old Xeon is all you need

#43

Post by fooker »

phaser wrote: post #31

What intrigues me the most about AI progress, is not AGI or the model du jour by $AI_UNICORN, but rather what can be run locally. I remember having an amusing, but rather useless model in a beefy gaming PC that I had 6 years ago; and now, something that’s a hundred times better on my M5 laptop. Should the market react to the memory shortage, the progress of the Apple silicon continue at the same pace, and what we’ll…

What you can run locally in consumer hardware is progressing pretty well.

If you get a not-quite-the-best gaming GPU like a 5080, you can run local models that are better than the state of the art from early 2025. Depending on what you want to do, you might have to switch models. The one size fits all huge models are still a data center thing.

Re: A 10 year old Xeon is all you need

#44

Post by fooker »

wazoox wrote: post #24
NSUserDefaults wrote: post #19

How about the iMac Pro? Would that work? I was able to put 128gb in it (not as easy as the regular iMac but possible).

I've been running various models on a Mac Pro 2013 (8 cores, 32 GB RAM) at about 8 to 10 t/s for months. It's not fast, but it's more than enough for many actual tasks, in particular background tasks. An iMac pro will do just as well I suppose.

What are the tasks that do well with 8-10 t/s ?

Re: A 10 year old Xeon is all you need

#45

Post by throwaway2027 »

Glad to see other people realizing this. I've been running Gemma 26B-A4B Q4 on a 2012 Xeon with 16GB to 24GB of RAM in a container. It's getting around 8 to 12 tokens per second. Obviously it's not comparable to huge contexts and running it on a GPU and the image decoder in llama.cpp is super slow compared to a GPU but for some small automation tasks and general trivia questions it's decent. The speed is just enough to not have to wait for it to finish so you can read along.

Here's my setup. You may want to figure out what the best optimizations are for your specific CPU like AVX2 because mine didn't have most of them. I did try MTP briefly but I wasn't getting performance improvements. You could play around with the batch sizes for cache or context or go even lower for Q2 and don't overcommit on threads either, but I would suggest either defaults or trying out llama-bench. This isn't by any means the best I assume but it worked decently for me and I sometimes swap out Gemma for Qwen. You could also lower q8_0 to q4_0 for more context but it could hurt quality some say, altough I have noticed it too on some models.

# Building

cmake -B build -DCMAKE_BUILD_TYPE=Release -DGGML_NATIVE=ON -DGGML_BLAS=ON -DGGML_BLAS_VENDOR=OpenBLAS -DGGML_OPENMP=ON

# Running

export OPENBLAS_NUM_THREADS=4

export OMP_NUM_THREADS=4

OPENBLAS_NUM_THREADS=4 OMP_NUM_THREADS=4 \

llama.cpp/build/bin/llama-server -hf unsloth/gemma-4-26B-A4B-it-GGUF:UD-Q4_K_XL --temp 1.0 --top-p 0.95 --top-k 64 --min-p 0.00 --jinja --host 0.0.0.0 --port 8080 --cache-type-k q8_0 --cache-type-v q8_0 --threads 4 --threads-batch 4 --ctx-size 8192 -n 8192 --batch-size 2048 --ubatch-size 512 --no-mmap --mlock --chat-template-kwargs '{"enable_thinking":false}' --no-mmproj -np 1 -fa 1

Re: A 10 year old Xeon is all you need

#46

Post by MAXPOOL »

phaser wrote: post #31

What intrigues me the most about AI progress, is not AGI or the model du jour by $AI_UNICORN, but rather what can be run locally. I remember having an amusing, but rather useless model in a beefy gaming PC that I had 6 years ago; and now, something that’s a hundred times better on my M5 laptop. Should the market react to the memory shortage, the progress of the Apple silicon continue at the same pace, and what we’ll…

Things you are not supposed to talk about:

- There is no "moat" (lasting, easy-to-defend technological edge) in AI model businesses. There are just short-term advantages.

- An AI business is a capital-intensive business, just like old factories. Data centers are expensive, models are energy-hungry, and the hardware inside must be replaced every 3–4 years.

- Smaller, specialized models eat margins from below. Transcription, voice, or image detection do not need large models.

There is no reason to expect high margins like you can in traditional software business. Benefits of AI go mostly to consumers.

edit: There is potential for economies of scale. Few megacorps can strive for cost advantage when they achieve scale (Microsoft, Google, Amazon and Meta)

Re: A 10 year old Xeon is all you need

#47

Post by shevy-java »

The webpage's layout is just horrible. Scrolling is also non-default - and thus rather annoying; I had to stop after two scroll events. Why do people think they need so much fancy effects or non-standard behaviour, if their alleged goal is to get information across to other people?

Re: A 10 year old Xeon is all you need

#48

Post by shevy-java »

cafkafk wrote: post #2

Hi HN. I wrote this post after getting frustrated by the lack of ways to run the new Gemma 4 Drafter models, and mainstream tools not prioritizing this, and hiding all the performance levers. I ended up getting a modern 26B MoE model (Gemma 4) running at reading speed on an old recycled server with a single Xeon E5-2620 v4 and 128GB of DDR3 RAM (and no GPU). It took a lot of work, but it actually worked out somehow.…

Would you consider improving the website's layout? Right now I find it below average quality and very distracting. Whether you are an engineer or not is not really important; great engineers can write horrible text or use a layout that is not ideal, for instance.

Re: A 10 year old Xeon is all you need

#49

Post by lightedman »

gdjdhdheb wrote: post #36
cafkafk wrote: post #2

Hi HN. I wrote this post after getting frustrated by the lack of ways to run the new Gemma 4 Drafter models, and mainstream tools not prioritizing this, and hiding all the performance levers. I ended up getting a modern 26B MoE model (Gemma 4) running at reading speed on an old recycled server with a single Xeon E5-2620 v4 and 128GB of DDR3 RAM (and no GPU). It took a lot of work, but it actually worked out somehow.…

You sure you got DDR3 .. I have 2 e5 v4 rigs at home and both have ddr4 ... Unless I am wrong and 2011-3 supports ddr3 and ddr4

The first two generations supported DDR3 only. Haswell and Broadwell (v4) brought DDR4 support.

Re: A 10 year old Xeon is all you need

#50

Post by rienbdj »

phaser wrote: post #31

What intrigues me the most about AI progress, is not AGI or the model du jour by $AI_UNICORN, but rather what can be run locally. I remember having an amusing, but rather useless model in a beefy gaming PC that I had 6 years ago; and now, something that’s a hundred times better on my M5 laptop. Should the market react to the memory shortage, the progress of the Apple silicon continue at the same pace, and what we’ll…

Training AI models to drive valuation reminds me of high frequency trading
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