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The AV2 Video Standard Has Released (Final v1.0 Specification)

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Re: The AV2 Video Standard Has Released (Final v1.0 Specification)

#81

Post by andersa »

nubinetwork wrote: post #78
jjcm wrote: post #2

A few things - this is one step in a long, LONG path. AV2 is currently unusable in its current state (the encoder typically runs at around 1fps on good hardware), and likely will remain so til ~2028 when the first av2 hardware accelerated chips start dropping. Even then, I wouldn't expect AV2 streams to be common til 2030. IMO, if it were just the efficiency gains on the table (which are substantial - ~20-30% over AV…

> enabling high-quality video delivery at significantly lower bitrates > likely will remain so til ~2028 when the first av2 hardware accelerated chips start dropping This might sound dumb, but whats the point if its intended for slower devices, but those slower devices don't even exist yet?

It's not for slower devices, it's for lower data transfer bills for providers like YouTube.

Re: The AV2 Video Standard Has Released (Final v1.0 Specification)

#82

Post by nubinetwork »

rovr138 wrote: post #80
nubinetwork wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> enabling high-quality video delivery at significantly lower bitrates > likely will remain so til ~2028 when the first av2 hardware accelerated chips start dropping This might sound dumb, but whats the point if its intended for slower devices, but those slower devices don't even exist yet?

so that new devices can adopt it They can't adopt it if it doesn't exist.

And what about old devices? I'm sure someone out there is still using an s5 as a daily driver... Future proofing is great and all, but 240p on modern devices looks like trash, even worse than tube tv.

Re: The AV2 Video Standard Has Released (Final v1.0 Specification)

#83

Post by BillStrong »

miohtama wrote: post #51
jjcm wrote: post #2

A few things - this is one step in a long, LONG path. AV2 is currently unusable in its current state (the encoder typically runs at around 1fps on good hardware), and likely will remain so til ~2028 when the first av2 hardware accelerated chips start dropping. Even then, I wouldn't expect AV2 streams to be common til 2030. IMO, if it were just the efficiency gains on the table (which are substantial - ~20-30% over AV…

In HW accelerated chips, what part of the calculations they usually accelerate? Could it be possible to repurpose old HW?

Essentially all of the processing of the video data, barring the container format which the CPU uses to know what part of the data to send to the GPU or the Audio chip or codec.

And HW acceleration is generally a preset baked in version of the encoder or decoder. These are mostly codec specific.

So, no using hardware from previous versions.

Now, you can see some software that tries to use the GPU itself, instead of the dedicated hardware acceleration, to decode, but that isn't the HW accelerated, and may not operate in real time.

At the same time, that will consume much more power, eliminating some of the advantages or the pure HW rendition, especially important for mobile.

I could see an argument being made for encoding, if it is 2x or faster than the CPU, but I haven't looked at any in a while, so don't know the speeds.

Re: The AV2 Video Standard Has Released (Final v1.0 Specification)

#84

Post by gen2brain »

ksec wrote: post #72
ChadNauseam wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

AVIF is for sure my favorite image format right now. No other format has the quadfecta of lossless, HDR, transparency, browser support. Plus as you said, for very compressed images it looks amazing. It blows my mind how small AVIF files can be. Also, unlike HEIC and Ultra HDR JPEG, it actually supports HDR natively as part of the file format rather than doing the hacky sidecar gain map trick. I know it doesn't matter…

>but I just love HDR and AVIF is the only format that I feel like really takes it seriously. JPEG XL would like a word.

He would like a word, but browsers said no?

Re: The AV2 Video Standard Has Released (Final v1.0 Specification)

#85

Post by BillStrong »

shmerl wrote: post #8
jjcm wrote: post #2

A few things - this is one step in a long, LONG path. AV2 is currently unusable in its current state (the encoder typically runs at around 1fps on good hardware), and likely will remain so til ~2028 when the first av2 hardware accelerated chips start dropping. Even then, I wouldn't expect AV2 streams to be common til 2030. IMO, if it were just the efficiency gains on the table (which are substantial - ~20-30% over AV…

That's fine and not anything new for codecs, they always take a long time before mass adoption. Take a look at AV1 itself, you can't even say it's really ubiquitous on all hardware. It's quite well along in adoption compared to early days, but some mobile devices are still lacking hardware acceleration for it.

It is still ironic to me that my Steam Deck has decode AV1 acceleration, on a really old CPU/GPU combo.

Re: The AV2 Video Standard Has Released (Final v1.0 Specification)

#86

Post by Gigachad »

nubinetwork wrote: post #82
rovr138 wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

so that new devices can adopt it They can't adopt it if it doesn't exist.

And what about old devices? I'm sure someone out there is still using an s5 as a daily driver... Future proofing is great and all, but 240p on modern devices looks like trash, even worse than tube tv.

240p for someone’s webcam thumbnail in Microsoft teams is perfectly sufficient though.

Re: The AV2 Video Standard Has Released (Final v1.0 Specification)

#87

Post by dannyw »

ksec wrote: post #70
Orphis wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One of the interesting usage of AV1 was specifically for low bitrate calls, and software encoding was perfectly fine, even on mobile. With low enough resolution, framerate and bitrate, you can get a quality stream without significant encoding artifacts compared to any other codec. It is in production right now and has been for a while. The tradeoff CPU / bandwidth is quite advantageous in situations like this. And no…

Have you said this for Audio Codec I would have agreed. I do not know a single Smartphone Video Conferencing software that uses CPU encoding rather than hardware encoding. Neither WhatsApp or FaceTime, perhaps the largest of the two real time Video Call uses AV1.

Yeah, no production or large scale VC system is running software AV1 encoders on smartphones. You will drain a full phone battery in 1-2 hours of calls.

It just doesn’t make sense and will result in extraordinary power/battery drainage at best, or output that’s worse than hardware encoding.

The only way you could get AV1 to software encode in realtime AND low latency on a mid-range Android chip is by disabling or skipping nearly all of the compression/encoding features that make it good at low bitrate.

Re: The AV2 Video Standard Has Released (Final v1.0 Specification)

#88

Post by Gigachad »

xbmcuser wrote: post #46
jjcm wrote: post #2

A few things - this is one step in a long, LONG path. AV2 is currently unusable in its current state (the encoder typically runs at around 1fps on good hardware), and likely will remain so til ~2028 when the first av2 hardware accelerated chips start dropping. Even then, I wouldn't expect AV2 streams to be common til 2030. IMO, if it were just the efficiency gains on the table (which are substantial - ~20-30% over AV…

The way things are going, we can pretty much forget about AV2 hardware encoders in PCs anytime soon. All the newest, best chip capacity is being completely hogged by Apple and AI companies. Unless chipmakers port the AV2 design to older, cheaper nodes, it’s just not happening for average users. We’ll probably see some Chinese TV chip makers throw in an AV2 decoder just to check a box, but as an actual encoder? I woul…

PCs don’t need hardware encoders. There are no realtime jobs on these. You can let it encode in however long it takes.

You need hardware encoders for things like cameras because they need to encode in real time since the buffer would quickly overflow otherwise.

Re: The AV2 Video Standard Has Released (Final v1.0 Specification)

#89

Post by kryptiskt »

xbmcuser wrote: post #46
jjcm wrote: post #2

A few things - this is one step in a long, LONG path. AV2 is currently unusable in its current state (the encoder typically runs at around 1fps on good hardware), and likely will remain so til ~2028 when the first av2 hardware accelerated chips start dropping. Even then, I wouldn't expect AV2 streams to be common til 2030. IMO, if it were just the efficiency gains on the table (which are substantial - ~20-30% over AV…

The way things are going, we can pretty much forget about AV2 hardware encoders in PCs anytime soon. All the newest, best chip capacity is being completely hogged by Apple and AI companies. Unless chipmakers port the AV2 design to older, cheaper nodes, it’s just not happening for average users. We’ll probably see some Chinese TV chip makers throw in an AV2 decoder just to check a box, but as an actual encoder? I woul…

I wouldn't be so pessimistic, Intel and AMD aren't going to stop making CPUs, and if their integrated graphics adds AV2 it will be motivation enough for others to follow.

Re: The AV2 Video Standard Has Released (Final v1.0 Specification)

#90

Post by Gigachad »

gen2brain wrote: post #84
ksec wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>but I just love HDR and AVIF is the only format that I feel like really takes it seriously. JPEG XL would like a word.

He would like a word, but browsers said no?

Firefox is getting the flag to turn it on in the next release, chromium just added it back now there is a rust decoder. The wheels are turning again. Browser support for jpeg xl is very much in progress again.
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