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The dead economy theory

owenmcgrann.com

891–900 of 1001 posts

Re: The dead economy theory

#891
post #566

A couple of disorganized thoughts in case anyone reads far enough to see them. The article posits that people don't want a check, they want a job. It's interesting because I think that varies widely from person to person and from job to job. The guy standing on the corner in the 95º heat with the "NEW HOMES >" sign isn't doing it for the love of the craft. Ditto for people picking tomatoes. People walking door to doo…

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Re: The dead economy theory

#892

> Turn three: the company that fired its workers to save money discovers that its customers were, in aggregate, other companies’ workers. Revenue growth stalls. The AI subscription that was supposed to be an investment in efficiency turns out to be a contribution to the destruction of its own market. If we take it to the extreme, the final solution to this problem is secessionism: a fully non-human AI economy where t…

As mentioned in the comments, this is essentially Nick Land's vision, which he has been developing for over 30 years. If anyone is interested in exploring this topic in depth, I have a research project on it: https://retrochronic.com (The Capital Autonomization section of the introduction is particularly relevant.)

Re: The dead economy theory

#893
The economy is an adaptive organism that never dies.

During the Industrial revolution, 90% of agricultural workers moved to the factories. And the fields kept producing.

Then it came the computer revolution and factory workers moved to offices. And factories kept producing even more.

Then it came the internet revolution and office workers moved back home. And corporations kept producing more than before.

Then it came the AI revolution and home workers moved to the virtual world. And they kept producing even more. slop. but it sells.

We adapt. The economy adapts. Nobody dies.

Re: The dead economy theory

#894

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It has become a meme at this point but this sentence still stands: "The underlying purpose of AI is to allow wealth to access skill while removing from the skilled the ability to access wealth".

Taste and experience are so much more important than the raw talent. You can't fix this with money. https://youtube.com/shorts/akcSX81KOv4

> Taste and experience are so much more important than the raw talent. You can't fix this with money.

Ok, so you've secured a future employment for 10,000 asethetes.

Congratulations! Then what about the other 8 billion people? Still unemployement, right?

Re: The dead economy theory

#895
Another hand waver saying “AI will replace all humans”. Is as much a theory as saying if the earth turns 3000c hot, everything will perish, and I don’t dispute that in a few billion years.

The problem with the theory is there are vast variables and unknowns in the timeline that matters, but they are just saying it will come very soon. The how is a simple “If AI replaced all cognitive work” which sounds exactly same as “If earth becomes 5000F hot”.

Is the same lazy posit they all make.

Re: The dead economy theory

#896

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If AI suddenly makes it possible for a law firm to be run with a skeleton crew, then what's stopping all those people you fired from starting new law companies, where AI also does most of the work, and competing with you for the same market? Money. They won't have the money to pay for the tokens, or the best models, because they'll be unemployed. They also won't have the connections to get the clients. When you're…

There's definitely going to be cheap or open source models

> There's definitely going to be cheap or open source models

What makes you think your "cheap or open source model" running on your piddling desktop cluster will be able to complete against a SOTA one running in a billion-dollar datacenter?

It's a cyberpunk fantasy. It won't work out that way.

Re: The dead economy theory

#897

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> jobs programs and helicopter money where people get paid to do nothing to keep the economy humming. The article addresses your concerns already. I know it's long, but you could probably skip a few paragraphs in the middle and start here: > Piketty, no conservative, has argued that UBI fails to address root structural problems: “unequal access to education and health, low-paying and low-productivity jobs, malfunctio…

"In the beginning of the 20th century when Jews started campaigning for bringing more Jews into Turkish, then British Palestine, the process often went like this: Jewish community or a wealthy individual buys a plot of land from a Turk owner. Turks never worked that land themselves, and used to hire local Arabs to do the agricultural labor. Jews would not rehire Arabs after acquisition, instead, they used the newly b…

Well, I lived in Petakh Tikva and met some people who lived there before 1948. There are still some patches of land (eg. behind Belinson) that used to be in Turkish possession, then were bought by Keren Kayemet le-Israel, and then kinda went nowhere. That one looks like it used to be an... orange orchard (is it what it's called? the orange tree plantation?). Anyways, growing oranges was a very common agricultural activity in that general area. Not really done by the nomads. There's also a park, if you go from Ramat Gan around Bney Brak in the direction of Petakh Tikva, and it has an old mill that used to belong to some Arab family (that whole place used to be an Arab village before 1948). Now it's a museum of sorts.

Petakh Tikva is also commonly called "Em ha-Moshavot" (mother of settlements) because it was one of the first, if not the first settlement by Jewish immigrants. It was very much the pilot in terms of how Jews were trying to get a hold of any plot of land they could and entrench there, including the tactics I described earlier. Of course, this wasn't the only tactics, and it wasn't necessary hostile to the locals. Another tactics that is well-known around that time is called "homah u-migdal" (wall and tower), which refers to the fact that having a wall and a tower was a necessary prerequisite for a place to be considered a settlement (for the purpose of drawing maps), and so Jews, esp. the Solel-Boneh (a well-known today construction company) would invest into building these sorts of "settlements" to claim more territory.

I'm not saying that the expulsion of Arab fellakhin from their peasant jobs was the reason for the confrontation. But it certainly contributed. And it certainly happened. While even to this day there are nomadic tribes in Israel and the occupied territories, none of them are Arabic (they are Bedouin). There are plenty of Arabic agricultural communities, and many of them can be traced back more than a hundred years. For instance, the Jaffa Oranges you might associate today with Israel (they are a popular export good and found in a lot of Western supermarkets) were actually bread by Arab farmers living around Jaffa (south of modern day Tel Aviv).

Re: The dead economy theory

#898

Not many people see that the end result is that when ordinary people stop earning money, and stop buying products, all the money will be used purely for B2B transactions. Money will still exist, but people will not see hardly any of it. To break out of being just a person and start a business you will still need money, but be unable to get any. Thus, the endgame is revealed. You don't need to form a dictatorship, you…

The practical difference between a select few owning everything and governments owning everything ends up being practically minor. The key is disperse true ownership (which is NOT just collective ownership via the standard shares; your share in Meta gives you as much control of that as your vote does the government).

Re: The dead economy theory

#899

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Businesses will still be owned or at heavily influenced by individuals and it is those individuals that will be able to steer how those business’ capital is allocated (including towards themselves).

Would you rather AI steer the capital?

At this point in time I doubt that AI is ever going to escape the control of the humans with capital, and those humans will just use it as a tool in order to amass ever more capital.

The hopeful outlook is that AI is also a lever for the working class. It's why I think local models are important.

Re: The dead economy theory

#900

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because you need a human lawyer to appear before a jury. AI can fill in forms but not appear in person.

Only a very small percent of cases go before a jury; the vast majority are decided by a judge by himself.

Judges rarely decide a case. Though most cases are settled in front of a judge without a jury. Mostly a semantic distinction
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