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I was driven mad by the Chinese education system

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Re: I was driven mad by the Chinese education system

#111
post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ugh. This is why I hate the grading system. The basic premise the entire system relies on is fear of failure, which, to me, seems to be completely counter-productive to learning. When I am actually learning something, for instance programming, I don't learn by marginally getting better and going to a slightly higher level before, still succeeding at every step — I learn immersing myself in something completely over m…

I wasn't motivated by fear. It was more like trying to be high scorer on a video game. Which is also somewhat of a stupid motivation, but probably not as stupid. I think the problem is not grades per se but the difference between what they're supposed to measure and what they actually do. That difference can be small (I can remember college classes where it was), but it takes an effort.

Who needs grades anyway? Do employers need grades?

I think the purpose of grades is primarily for bureaucrats to compare schools.

Teachers are the ones being paid. Grade them, not the pupils. Children need to know which classes are worth attending.

Re: I was driven mad by the Chinese education system

#112
post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think things are failing so blaming "the current approach" seems misguided. I can't think of a single area where things where better 100 years ago than they are today in the US. Most trends are fairly positive over the last 30 years. EX: People talk about an increase in the dropout rate but it's slowly falling across the US. ( http://nces.ed.gov/ssbr/pages/dropout.asp ) Edit: more recent numbers http://nces.e…

I can't think of a single area where things where better 100 years ago than they are today in the US. 1) architecture 2) divorce rates 3) illegitimacy rates 3) inner city crime rates 4) the strength of civic organizations 5) the entire education system 6) taxes 7) black male employment rates ( http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=950CE1D81E3CF... ) 8) average firm size 9) the non-existence of several hundre…

If you look at small enough chunks of the system you can find problems, but art, heath, education, lifespan, income, wealth, have all increased dramatically. More specifically:

Edit: Pick a social, religious, ethnic, and or age group you would rather be randomly dropped off in 1908 than 2008.

1) I strongly disagree.

2) Divorce rates have increased but the length of the average marriage stayed fairly constant. People divorce has basically replaced death which IMO is an improvement.

3a illegitimacy) This is part of a trade off where marriage is less important.

3b inner city crime rates) this has to do with concentrating relative poverty. Overall violent crime keeps falling and intercity poor of 2008 is far better off than poor of 1908.

4) I don't know what your talking about.

5) Is improving by every measurement. Have you looked at dropout rates from 1908?

6) That's debatable, I think taxes are far more useful now than they where in 1908 and most people are far more wealthy after taxes. When the value of the average person's after tax income is so much higher then it's hard to say taxes are a problem.

7) People on welfare today are far better off financially than the average worker from 1908. Directly comparing an unemployed person of 2008 with an unemployed person of 1908 seems to be missing the point.

8) Is this just a matter of taste or is there an actual problem?

9) Our military threats have changed, but considering we where about to go to WWI I think we are probably far more safe today.

10) Stronger now than it was in 1908.

PS: Then again I could just be a child of my age, I might prefer now to the world 100 years from now. But, when you look at people actually lived the past was far from pleasant.

Re: I was driven mad by the Chinese education system

#113
post #48
post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"I was told that this is because Koreans basically get one shot at the exam. It practically makes or breaks your life." People talk about the superior nature of the American higher education system, which might seem strange if you are used to hearing about how much it sucks, but of course those criticisms are talking about two different things. The American system is superior because you can get a second chance in al…

You're generalising from one data point. Even within the UK, Scotland has a 4 year degree and England a 3 year. Generally in Scotland you can switch to your minor at the end of the first year without losing anything. The only other part of Europe that I know about Germany is vastly more lenient with people staying students seemingly forever. One guy I talked to claimed that they couldn't afford to finish as the loss…

"You're generalising from one data point."

No, I'm not. I'm sharing a general observation with wide validity associatively triggered by one person's post. It's a conversational thing.

"Generally in Scotland you can switch to your minor at the end of the first year without losing anything."

Do you mean this as some sort of evidence against my point? (Honest question, I'm not sure.) It's evidence for it.

"And of course just because people can switch doesn't mean they do. Whether it's in someway normal to switch seems to play a larger role (generalizing from two data points...)"

Culture. Even if there are no technical barriers, if the culture forbids it, or makes the thought unthinkable somehow, it causes friction.

Re: I was driven mad by the Chinese education system

#114

I hate to be the bearer of bad news but the Chinese education system, coupled with discipline through fear works. I competed at last year's International Physics Olympiad (Viet Nam), who won? China, as usual. China starts preparation for the competition when their participants are just 8; they work ~16 hours a day on physics problems. The result? Winning with ease. You have, I all presume, read Gladwell's latest book…

Doing well in the Physics Olympiad is not the same as doing well in physics. In the Physics Olympiad, you solve simple problems based on well-understood formulae. In physics, you create new knowledge. It may be telling that China has won only three physics Nobel prizes, and all three of the winners got their PhDs in the US. I admire your dedication to working hard on physics, but I think that creative, effortful prac…

I couldn't agree more.

Forcing oneself to do tasks is a pretty sure way to shut down creativity.

Re: I was driven mad by the Chinese education system

#115
post #88
post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Both my parents have post-graduate degrees and have told me one thing repeatedly: Shamiq, we know how important it is to learn, but the only way anyone is going to look beyond your skin color is if your scores are so superior, if your skills are so superior, if everything is so much better than the number 2 that they'd be shooting themselves in the foot if they don't hire you. But the main focus has always been grade…

Shamiq, we know how important it is to learn, but the only way anyone is going to look beyond your skin color is if your scores are so superior, if your skills are so superior, if everything is so much better than the number 2 that they'd be shooting themselves in the foot if they don't hire you. If you don't mind my asking, where do you live?

Currently in Evanston, IL. Before that in Texas.

Re: I was driven mad by the Chinese education system

#116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The OP was talking about teaching to tests, which generally means 12th grade proficiencies. No Child Left Behind has made that common practice. The proficiencies are more than anything designed to test the quality of a given school's education and measure their progress. School districts' federal (and often state) funding and various other things are determined by their results on those tests. My statement was that t…

"My statement was that there isn't really a better metric." How about other types of standardized tests that are non multiple choice?

Where did anyone say anything about multiple choice? Math tests for instance are often not yet are still totally objective.

Re: I was driven mad by the Chinese education system

#117
post #110
post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even if China's universities had developed first-class physics departments 30 years ago, you wouldn't see the effect in Nobel prizes yet. I guess you're referring to Daniel C. Tsui, Yáng Zhènníng, and Lǐ Zhèngdào. Yáng and Lǐ won their Nobel in 1957. Lǐ got his Ph.D. in the late 1940s; Yáng got his in 1942. China in the 1930s and 1940s was not only a desperately poor undeveloped country; it was also being invaded by…

>> The Great Leap Forward and the Cultural Revolution were happening there in the 1960s, and the problems with Chinese educational outcomes included things like "widespread illiteracy" and "professors sent to prison camps because students thought they were unpatriotic", not problems like "too much time spent on rote learning". Mao, of course, hated patriotism and China's past with a passion and did everything in his…

Thank you very much! I'm sorry I missed the distinction between "loyalty to the party" and "loyalty to the country" or patriotism. I think you have illustrated better than I ever could that China in the 1960s had much bigger problems than cram school.

From your post I think I might have offended you but I am not sure how. Please accept my apologies.

Re: I was driven mad by the Chinese education system

#118
post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can't think of a single area where things where better 100 years ago than they are today in the US. 1) architecture 2) divorce rates 3) illegitimacy rates 3) inner city crime rates 4) the strength of civic organizations 5) the entire education system 6) taxes 7) black male employment rates ( http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=950CE1D81E3CF... ) 8) average firm size 9) the non-existence of several hundre…

If you look at small enough chunks of the system you can find problems, but art, heath, education, lifespan, income, wealth, have all increased dramatically. More specifically: Edit: Pick a social, religious, ethnic, and or age group you would rather be randomly dropped off in 1908 than 2008. 1) I strongly disagree. 2) Divorce rates have increased but the length of the average marriage stayed fairly constant. People…

1) Architecture is a matter of taste, so debate is usually not fruitful. But when I walk through an old city, I find all the old buildings much more pleasing to the eye than the new buildings. For an extreme example, compare Boston City Hall ( http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/13/Bos... ) to the State House ( http://graphics.worldweb.com/PhotoImages/Articles/USA/Boston... )

2) The two have nothing to do with each other. While the rise in life expectancy happened gradually over the course of the century, the rise in divorce rates was very sharp from 1965 to 1980.

3a) Again, the rise in illegitimacy happened between 1965 and 1980 and has generally been a social disaster.

3b) In terms of material well being perhaps. In terms of culture, absolutely not. Read "Gang Lead for a Day" and then compare to "How the Other Half Lives". And violent crime certainly has not been falling in the inner cities: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=271919

4) Read Robert Putnams's Bowling Alone. Basically TV and video games have replaced the old civic organizations like the Masons or bowling leagues.

5) High drop out rates are a feature. It means young adults aren't required by law to waste their life earning a meaningless credential just to enter their chosen profession. I discuss this in full in this thread: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=358326

6) What government spending do you find so useful? The military bases in 170 countries? The carrier fleet that would last about 30 minutes in modern cruise missile warfare? The space shuttle program that only makes news when a shuttle explodes every ten years? The corn and ethanol subsidies? The housing/welfare programs that have created a permanent urban underclass? Medicare/medicaid, which consume 7% of GDP on healthcare, yet only manage to cover a fraction of the population?

7) My point was that the overall employment rate among black men has declined dramatically. This is a disaster. Even if their material well being is ok, being unemployed is emasculating.

8) The problem is the Dilbertization of the economy. The soulless organization man companies, filled with pointy haired bosses, are a child of World War II.

9) Well I certainly hope so.

10) Both U.S. today and U.S. pre-Fed had a nasty business cycle. But the advantage of the system back then was that in the panic of 1907 Wall St. bailed itself out. No need for several trillion dollars of government money. Other advantages of 1907 include no inflation, no Sarbox, and companies actually paying dividends.

Overall, I would still prefer to live in 2009. But that's almost entirely due to the exponential growth of technology. But remember that technology can move in a different direction than the other components of a society.

Technology is much, much better today. But the political system is far, far worse. Culture is better in some ways ( Rock & Roll, movies, blogs) and worse in others (fewer civic organizations, awful architecture). There is no reason we could not restore the political system of 1909 while keeping all our new fangled toys. Then we would have the best of both worlds. On the other hand, if the political situation continues to deteriorate, eventually technological growth will start to slow down or even reverse. That is scenario that must be averted.

Re: I was driven mad by the Chinese education system

#119
post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you look at small enough chunks of the system you can find problems, but art, heath, education, lifespan, income, wealth, have all increased dramatically. More specifically: Edit: Pick a social, religious, ethnic, and or age group you would rather be randomly dropped off in 1908 than 2008. 1) I strongly disagree. 2) Divorce rates have increased but the length of the average marriage stayed fairly constant. People…

1) Architecture is a matter of taste, so debate is usually not fruitful. But when I walk through an old city, I find all the old buildings much more pleasing to the eye than the new buildings. For an extreme example, compare Boston City Hall ( http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/13/Bos... ) to the State House ( http://graphics.worldweb.com/PhotoImages/Articles/USA/Boston... ) 2) The two have nothing…

Read up on the government of 1908, it was extremely corrupt.

Anyway, Technology is driving most of the social changes you're talking about. Something like 50% of the average persons medical expenses occur in the last year of their life which makes insuring the old extremely costly. The government pays for ~50% of all medicine in the US and most of it would not exist if a) it where not available and b) people where not living as long. The world would probably be more wealthy without that drain, but I don't know if it would be better.

I expect the government of 1908 was more corrupt than the government of today, people did not have the money to let government take that much off of them. 1908 introduced the Model T, before that modern roads where pointless in most places. I think the streetlight best summarizes government involvement, when 1000 people per hour are driving underneath them it's a extremely useful, but they are pointless in the middle of a corn field. Nobody is going to pay per light to see at night so it's really just a question of government/local groups or nothing. Saying public infrastructure is best served by private companies seems to miss the poor service they provide. EX: Cellphone coverage in the US. So yes taxes are up, but it's not like the money is set on fire we are getting a lot of services from that money.

When it comes to social organizations things like MMO guilds and facebook let people be far more social than the average pre car social club. While face time might be decreasing the average person is far more social today than at any other point in history. And considering how much more free time people have facetime might also be increasing.

Edit: Over the last 100 years the middle class and the wealthy have left city's and have only recently been returning. Murder statistics among the poor and they have always been high so correlating it with city living is missing the point. You can look at the murder rate in inner city's or the murder rate among high school dropouts and see the same trends.

PS: I think human nature has changed little over time, most social changes are a reaction to increased technology / prosperity and throughout history the rich tended to become fat, self absorbed, and decedent. The powerful / well connected become corrupt. And working people get stepped on.

Re: I was driven mad by the Chinese education system

#120
post #115
post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Shamiq, we know how important it is to learn, but the only way anyone is going to look beyond your skin color is if your scores are so superior, if your skills are so superior, if everything is so much better than the number 2 that they'd be shooting themselves in the foot if they don't hire you. If you don't mind my asking, where do you live?

Currently in Evanston, IL. Before that in Texas.

Do you feel that people in IL or TX are still that racist? Or are you old enough that when your parents were saying that it was a long time ago? I haven't lived in either part of the country but I'd be surprised if it's really still like that.
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