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GTA 6 Developers Unionize

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Re: GTA 6 Developers Unionize

#121

Post by charcircuit »

StevenNunez wrote: post #115
keybored wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Anti-unionists are here to tell us that consumers might possibly suffer. Higher prices and delays on a video game. Which has not seen a release in this series in half this century so far. For all this consumer cares, great. Make it 20% more expensive. Make it 50% more expensive. A hundred. If that helps the greater union cause I can take more walks in the woods to pass the time instead.

Or :gasp: take less profit. The game will take in Billions especially if they release new versions like GTA5 over time.

That will negatively affect shareholders which is the opposite of the employees' job. Maximizing the value of the stock to shareholders over time.

Re: GTA 6 Developers Unionize

#122

Post by vouwfietsman »

matchbok3 wrote: post #96
keybored wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Anti-unionists are here to tell us that consumers might possibly suffer. Higher prices and delays on a video game. Which has not seen a release in this series in half this century so far. For all this consumer cares, great. Make it 20% more expensive. Make it 50% more expensive. A hundred. If that helps the greater union cause I can take more walks in the woods to pass the time instead.

What a luxury you have to spend so much money on things, then. Hint: most people don't live that way.

Hint: maybe they would if they would unionize themselves.

Re: GTA 6 Developers Unionize

#123

Post by ionwake »

flohofwoe wrote: post #111
ionwake wrote: post #101

Isnt management at Rockstar the same poeple who: A) Allowed a bug in the code make all GTA5 Load times on every single copy on every platform take exponential times longer to load, for YEARS, unchecked or investigated, until some random kid FIXED IT by reverse engineering compiled code? B) The bug was a simple and unneeded look up for SHOP items C) The never rewarded the kid, with say a job or something worthwhile fo…

This JSON-parsing problem is the least of Rockstars problems I think. But I bet it happened like this: - when the game was still in active development, it was maybe anticipated that the shop might have a couple dozen items, no problem even when the JSON parsing is extremely slow - game is released, a separate maintenance team takes over, online mode is running for several years - over time more and more items are add…

Thanks for your insight its appreciated. I know I come across mean but Im just reminding everyone of simple facts that atleast contributed to all these problems.

I have nothing to do with Rockstar and wish them well, Im just saying that if I were management during these situations I would have quit or made a public apology. Its just what I feel I would have done. Regardless of the salary. I mean if one is mgmt they should take responsibility.

But maybe in late stage capitalism that is both an abhorrent and illogical idea.

Re: GTA 6 Developers Unionize

#124

Post by matchbok3 »

ionwake wrote: post #101

Isnt management at Rockstar the same poeple who: A) Allowed a bug in the code make all GTA5 Load times on every single copy on every platform take exponential times longer to load, for YEARS, unchecked or investigated, until some random kid FIXED IT by reverse engineering compiled code? B) The bug was a simple and unneeded look up for SHOP items C) The never rewarded the kid, with say a job or something worthwhile fo…

If this "management" is so incompetent and ineffective, the workers shouldn't need them, right? They should just start their own company.

Didn't think so.

This simplistic view of "management" is detrimental to a productive conversation and doesn't reflect reality.

Re: GTA 6 Developers Unionize

#125

Post by rowanG077 »

charcircuit wrote: post #109
rowanG077 wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But don't bad gameplay programmers implement gameplay badly? If that is truly the state of the industry that explains all the modern games with extremely mushy controls.

Customers don't care about the code. They just care that the gameplay is fun.

Are you implying the only differentiator between good and bad developers is the aesthetic of the code itself? And not the actual computation the code does? Wild take honestly.

Re: GTA 6 Developers Unionize

#126

Post by qmmmur »

matchbok3 wrote: post #118
lucky_cloud wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are plenty of studies backed by plenty of data to support exactly these assertions.

There are countless counter examples that are obvious. Teacher's unions (hard to fire teachers, poor quality). Transit unions (mandating 2 drivers per subway car, crazy benefits, etc). Auto industry fighting EVs. Sorry, it just doesn't make any sense to make such a broad statement regarding this at all. A union's job is to protect the union. Nothing else.

I would be interested to understand more about what you think unions and organisation have done for working rights over the last 100 years.

Re: GTA 6 Developers Unionize

#127

Post by agentgt »

fny wrote: post #97
agentgt wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it is mostly just margins. Sure there are lots of people willing to work for no very little money for game dev but I would say there are tons of people willing to work for very little money for FAANG companies because they want that on their resume. In fact since we are on hackernews that is kind of thing people wanting to be entrepreneurs do. Work at recognizable big tech company for a few years. Leave to be…

You have the causality inverted. People want big tech on their resume because it makes them look qualified. People with top qualifications work at big tech because of pay. If low quality engineers worked in big tech, it wouldn't be a coveted qualification.

The causality of what? I'm probably missing something obvious here. The cause of people getting paid less in game development I said has to do with margins (although I now think there is more to it than that).

> People want big tech on their resume because it makes them look qualified.

I think I said that?

> People with top qualifications work at big tech because of pay.

Actually I am not sure if that is true. I think top qualification people work at these places because of other reasons than just money. I'm talking Carmack working at Facebook for example is because of more possibilities and less the pay. Like FB is we have this really smart team for you and this tech for you and you can make your own products etc.

After all there is academia and that mostly pays shit and plenty of qualified people there.

> If low quality engineers worked in big tech, it wouldn't be a coveted qualification.

And I think that is probably happening more now. The 10x developer was kind of a myth. More people for less money these days particularly with AI is becoming more of the norm.

Re: GTA 6 Developers Unionize

#128

Post by criddell »

chasd00 wrote: post #92

What is the career ladder like for game devs? In a union, the only way up is seniority or, in other words, the amount of money you've paid in dues over the years. A great developer isn't going to get rewarded with higher pay or a better role unless they've spent enough time/money as a union member.

> the only way up is seniority

That’s not true at all. Look at professional athletes. The starting pitchers in a baseball game are the best pitchers. Or consider WGA screenwriters in Hollywood. Their ability to make money doesn’t depend in seniority.

Re: GTA 6 Developers Unionize

#129

Post by lawn »

matchbok3 wrote: post #93
HugoTea wrote: post #5

This is great news, unions not only improve working conditions, but also improve the final product by not having underpaid stressed staff with high turn-over. It's a good sign for the future product quality of any company to see workers unionise.

There's no data to prove this assertion, unfortunately.

[flagged]

Re: GTA 6 Developers Unionize

#130

Post by andybak »

appreciatorBus wrote: post #80
Negitivefrags wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People haven’t responded to your very first point, and I want to really stress it because I don’t think most people really get it. Margins. Game development doesn’t pay more because game development companies can’t afford to pay more. Sure, an individual game dev company may make a lot due to the hit driven nature of the field, but the totality of the market simply makes less money per developer than big tech does. I…

> In order for that to change, the market has to increase in size by appealing to a more casual audience, or existing gamers have to pay more. The fun part of all this is that when union demands start forcing the industry in the opposite direction - higher cost, higher prices, smaller market. In a sane world, we would connect this, but in this world, we will just blame management. The union will forever have an invin…

In what world are unions never criticised? I'm in the UK and they are often reviled in the press and among people who don't work in a unionised sector. America has an even stronger tradition of anti-union feeling (maybe partly due to historic links between unions and organised crime but also because the US has often had a stronger collectivisation than most European countries - consider that the political centre in the US would be considered into right wing in most Western countries on most issues)
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