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GTA 6 Developers Unionize

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Re: GTA 6 Developers Unionize

#111

Post by flohofwoe »

ionwake wrote: post #101

Isnt management at Rockstar the same poeple who: A) Allowed a bug in the code make all GTA5 Load times on every single copy on every platform take exponential times longer to load, for YEARS, unchecked or investigated, until some random kid FIXED IT by reverse engineering compiled code? B) The bug was a simple and unneeded look up for SHOP items C) The never rewarded the kid, with say a job or something worthwhile fo…

This JSON-parsing problem is the least of Rockstars problems I think.

But I bet it happened like this:

- when the game was still in active development, it was maybe anticipated that the shop might have a couple dozen items, no problem even when the JSON parsing is extremely slow

- game is released, a separate maintenance team takes over, online mode is running for several years

- over time more and more items are added to the shop, and now maybe there are a thousands of items in that JSON file

- ...and when there's some 'accidental exponential' code in the JSON loader/parser the loading time gets worse and worse, what once was a few milliseconds is now minutes, but there was never a sudden regression after an update, just every week a little bit slower

- depending on the churn on the maintenance team, the current people on the team probably don't even notice an increase in loading time until they leave again for greener pastures, e.g. for them "it has always been that slow"

- management probably first read about the problem in the news ;) (which of course is a problem on its own - but as long as the money keeps flowing and the curves in Tableau go up and up, why should they even care... players apparently also endured it without bringing out the pitchforks)

Re: GTA 6 Developers Unionize

#112

Post by javier123454321 »

ryandrake wrote: post #10
WarmWash wrote: post #4

Can anyone comment on why "big video game" dev pay has lagged "big tech" pay so badly? Ostensibly they are doing remarkably similar engineering problem solving, so why is there such a disparity?

Is it as simple as supply/demand? People love games and game-loving developers are willing to take lower compensation to be in the industry? As a former obsessed gamer, I remember in my 20s I almost would have been willing to work at iD Software without pay if they let me.

It is actually quite a common occurrence in the arts and other creative fields, where there is a level of idealization for the work in itself outside of the remuneration. Musicians, architects, illustrators, cinematographers are all dealing with the same thing the more the work resembles their ideal type of artistic work, the less to pay usually.

Re: GTA 6 Developers Unionize

#114

Post by vouwfietsman »

charcircuit wrote: post #105
slg wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All else being equal, the cooler a job is, the less it will pay. It's why unions have been so successful in other "cool jobs" like professional athlete and working on movies and TV. There are some people who would do those jobs for free which completely destroys the market power of most individuals requiring collective action to prevent exploitation.

Working for the amount of money one agrees to is not exploitation.

It would be prudent if you would dig a bit deeper into how unions came to be. Long story short, capitalism can easily create situations where you agree to be exploited to some degree, to avoid being exploited to another, worse, degree.

Re: GTA 6 Developers Unionize

#115

Post by StevenNunez »

keybored wrote: post #88
parineum wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> but also improve the final product by not having underpaid stressed staff with high turn-over. We'll see. It's not like police unions are making life better for citizens. Unions are there for one reason, the union members. This will most likely be good for the employees and good on them for acting in their best interest but it seems just as likely that a unionized rockstar is negative for the consumer in either inc…

Anti-unionists are here to tell us that consumers might possibly suffer. Higher prices and delays on a video game. Which has not seen a release in this series in half this century so far. For all this consumer cares, great. Make it 20% more expensive. Make it 50% more expensive. A hundred. If that helps the greater union cause I can take more walks in the woods to pass the time instead.

Or :gasp: take less profit. The game will take in Billions especially if they release new versions like GTA5 over time.

Re: GTA 6 Developers Unionize

#116

Post by wasabi991011 »

chasd00 wrote: post #92

What is the career ladder like for game devs? In a union, the only way up is seniority or, in other words, the amount of money you've paid in dues over the years. A great developer isn't going to get rewarded with higher pay or a better role unless they've spent enough time/money as a union member.

> In a union, the only way up is seniority

This isn't a strict requirement of unions though, right? As a trivial example grad student unions have no real career ladder, though the union negotiates a minimum pay and amount of work for everyone.

Re: GTA 6 Developers Unionize

#117

Post by matchbok3 »

tossandthrow wrote: post #104
matchbok3 wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's no data to prove this assertion, unfortunately.

I trust that you are able to translate yourself https://www.ae.dk/debatindlaeg/2023-05-staerke-fagforeninger...

There are countless counter examples that are obvious. Teacher's unions (hard to fire teachers, poor quality). Transit unions (mandating 2 drivers per subway car, crazy benefits, etc). Auto industry fighting EVs.

Sorry, it just doesn't make any sense to make such a broad statement regarding this at all.

Re: GTA 6 Developers Unionize

#118

Post by matchbok3 »

lucky_cloud wrote: post #103
matchbok3 wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's no data to prove this assertion, unfortunately.

There are plenty of studies backed by plenty of data to support exactly these assertions.

There are countless counter examples that are obvious. Teacher's unions (hard to fire teachers, poor quality). Transit unions (mandating 2 drivers per subway car, crazy benefits, etc). Auto industry fighting EVs.

Sorry, it just doesn't make any sense to make such a broad statement regarding this at all.

A union's job is to protect the union. Nothing else.

Re: GTA 6 Developers Unionize

#119

Post by SV_BubbleTime »

squigz wrote: post #58
amazingamazing wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Really? American cars suck compared to japanese and chinese which are not unionized. What’s an example of a unionized vs non unionized group producing the same thing where unionized is better?

Is there any reason to believe North American cars wouldn't be even worse if there weren't unions?

Hello, long-time automotive EE here… The absolute insanity I’ve seen from the UAW would make your fucking head spin right off. It took me a LONG time to accept it.

Ignore my first hand experience with your political ideology, it doesn’t bother me.

But, I’ll tell you I’ve been at on-site RVs and BBQs with dozens of on the clock workers. I know a guy making 80/hr to nap and watch TV in his RV for six of his eight hour shift, and this was not uncommon. I know him, because he is THE GUY that can get a vital operation checked out and no one else.

I’m not debating history or ideology. Just experience of a long time working adjacent to UAW.

When I go to on-site to Mexico it’s like an entirely different industry.

Re: GTA 6 Developers Unionize

#120

Post by smartties »

fidotron wrote: post #20
WarmWash wrote: post #4

Can anyone comment on why "big video game" dev pay has lagged "big tech" pay so badly? Ostensibly they are doing remarkably similar engineering problem solving, so why is there such a disparity?

Supply/demand. For example, GPU shader programming is something people will practically fight over doing because it's so non obviously utterly addictive. I would say dev roles in tech in general that lack an operational component also lag in pay, and much of gamedev is pure dev in a sense the wider tech industry has since largely forgotten exists. On the art side it's even more extreme.

GPU programming has to be one of the highest paying jobs in the game industry, and it can transition quite easily into other industries as well. Mostly because it’s not an entry-level position. On top of being a solid C++ developer, you need to understand the entire hardware stack and be able to optimize shaders at the instruction level while juggling things like occupancy, memory coalescing, and other low level performance concerns.
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