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About LLMs at Zig Days

kristoff.it

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Re: About LLMs at Zig Days

#51

Post by hobofan »

jdlshore wrote: post #4

For those who aren’t aware, as I wasn’t, this is coming from the “VP of Community” at the Zig Foundation. So the proposal to soft ban LLMs at Zig Day meetups seems like it has a bit more weight than if it was some random community member. (I’m not a member of the community, so not fully aware of the dynamics.)

This didn't sound like a "soft ban" to me.

With things happening in general, and with Bun's LLM-aided move away from Zig in particular, there is bound to be some interest in talking about LLMs and how that impacts Zig's future.

I think this was a well measured "hey, let's focus on thing we are coming together to celebrate and advance: Zig".

Re: About LLMs at Zig Days

#52

Post by altairprime »

ratstew wrote: post #7
jdlshore wrote: post #4

For those who aren’t aware, as I wasn’t, this is coming from the “VP of Community” at the Zig Foundation. So the proposal to soft ban LLMs at Zig Day meetups seems like it has a bit more weight than if it was some random community member. (I’m not a member of the community, so not fully aware of the dynamics.)

Isn't "soft ban" still a bit harsh? I think it was reasonable take and a good reminder of the purpose of these events.

Only in the sense that community leadership is harsh by nature. ‘We’d rather you didn’t do that’ is the essence of a soft ban and what they’ve expressed as leader here, and even a soft ban muffling topics and therefore a subset of people, which is often seen as ‘harsh’.

Re: About LLMs at Zig Days

#53

Post by Joel_Mckay »

robbiewxyz wrote: post #39
Joel_Mckay wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let me fix your logical fallacy of composition: " * Excitement from people who are able to [unaccountably plagerize] things they could not, * Fear from people who's [business IP rights] are threatened, * [overt copyright theft from] artists [and chat bot users] whose work is being ripped off, * [well funded denigration of] activists looking out for ecosystems & the climate. " Thankfully LLM are not real "AI", and mod…

This rephrasing is directly unhelpful to the goal of empathy for the humans caught in the change. If we come off as insensitive we will have no hope of influencing people. Also if you see a specific fallacy, please do name which one so I can improve. All that said, I personally unequivocally agree with each of your points. I hope you are channeling this rage not only into comments sections but also into the hard work…

"This rephrasing is directly unhelpful" is an Informal fallacy.

One does not need to "unequivocally agree", as facts should be verifiable. =3

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cognitive_biases

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aNSHZG9blQQ

Re: About LLMs at Zig Days

#54

Post by [deleted] »

skeledrew wrote: post #42

Be interesting to see where Zig and ecosystem is in a few years with this general anti-LLM stance from it's core people. My guess is it'll just make it's way as a hobby language, left behind in the dust. Which is of course a perfectly fine thing for some.

[deleted]

Re: About LLMs at Zig Days

#55

Post by [deleted] »

skeledrew wrote: post #42

Be interesting to see where Zig and ecosystem is in a few years with this general anti-LLM stance from it's core people. My guess is it'll just make it's way as a hobby language, left behind in the dust. Which is of course a perfectly fine thing for some.

[deleted]

Re: About LLMs at Zig Days

#56

Post by Joel_Mckay »

adamtaylor_13 wrote: post #43
Joel_Mckay wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Why do people insist on using extreme rhetoric like this? I simply narrowed the logical specificity of why LLM may be avoided in some use cases. No one can 100% prevent theft, as some people will decide personal desperation excuses philosophical compromises. It differs from a sociopath anti-social behavior, which is a constant aspect of civilizations. People can choose to be upset, or recognize it is a facet of som…

You claimed to "fix a logical fallacy" by merely stating your opinion that this is theft. Many (most?) disagree with the premise that using an LLM is somehow tantamount to theft. I invited you to attempt to present an argument, which you have neatly side-stepped.

That is a long conversation, but one is welcome to watch a short documentary on the subject. =3

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zyQwAhppWj8

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ERiXDhLHxmo

Re: About LLMs at Zig Days

#57

Post by fgqwt »

adamtaylor_13 wrote: post #40
es15x wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Joel_Mckay is responding to a glib comment that sugarcoats and trivializes the theft. Just like you do. People need to be reminded of reality in their newspeak bubble.

Re-stating an opinion does not somehow establish it as a fact. I'd welcome an effort to support what you're saying instead of just hand-waving this as some sort of self-evident fact of the universe.

Why would people feed a sealion?

Re: About LLMs at Zig Days

#58

Post by xantronix »

sigmar wrote: post #6

>My recommendation is also to not choose an extreme approach (e.g. by completely banning LLM-related discourse) unless you feel very strongly about it. Organizers are allowed to ban the mention of certain programming topics? I could understand if it was a topic that was adjacent to violence/harassment/sensitive stuff, but come on... are anti-AI groups becoming a cult?

Generative AI has and their providers have become an implicitly political subject. It shouldn't come as a surprise.

Re: About LLMs at Zig Days

#59

Post by keybored »

skeledrew wrote: post #42

Be interesting to see where Zig and ecosystem is in a few years with this general anti-LLM stance from it's core people. My guess is it'll just make it's way as a hobby language, left behind in the dust. Which is of course a perfectly fine thing for some.

No need to worry about manual coder hubris. This piece covers all clanker possibilties/bases.

> And even if you have full confidence that the future of commercial software is strictly hands-off agentic coding, Zig Days are still for people who enjoy the act of programming, even if that were to become just a hobby.

Maybe they’ll even get to enjoy their hobbies for a few days without worrying about getting left in the dust (perfectly fine).

Re: About LLMs at Zig Days

#60

Post by cyclopeanutopia »

mw888 wrote: post #23
feverzsj wrote: post #5

Just ban LLM. It's events for human beings, not LLMs.

There's an irony in your comment. On one hand, it's clearly starkly anti-LLM, but on the other hand, you treat humans and LLMs as similar categories, accepting a strong pro-AI framing. You would never say "events are for humans, not search engines" as if search engines were a similar category to humans.

"Cities are for humans, not cars."
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