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The user is visibly frustrated

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Re: The user is visibly frustrated

#281

Post by em-bee »

streetfighter64 wrote: post #275
em-bee wrote: post #205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I didn't see them say anything about dignity actually, i did, and i stand by it. working with a system that makes you angry is undignified. it's a reference to a quote that i can't find the source for which roughly goes like this: *why i use linux and not windows? i could also rob banks and ..., but you have to keep a certain amount of dignity". the original of that quote was in german.

I'll say, I quite hope the AI comes for your job so you'll have a chance to experience one of those "undignified" jobs you look down on so much.

you have no idea. as a software developer the job market is already very bad, so your wish is already reality.

but i don't see any undignified jobs as alternative here either. what should that be?

taxi/bus driver? food delivery? sweeping streets? work as a plumber (apparently they are in demand in western countries)? i can't see anything undignified about that. even cleaning toilets isn't undignified. it has to be done.

maybe it can be argued that working as a prostitute is undignified. at least if it is not done voluntary. and of course bad working conditions are undignified.

but again, all of these jobs can be structured such that they don't cause stress and that they can be done with dignity.

so what really is an undignified job?

there is only one more category of undignified work that just came to mind: jobs where i am contributing to the exploitation of others. i once worked in a software company that had a customer that was running a sportsbetting website. in itself the work was not undignified, we used linux, and all the good software practices, but contributing to a gambling website just felt wrong.

people also consider the exploitation of users done by meta/facebook, google etc, as undignified. but those jobs have the same problem with dignity that using windows has, so i don't think they are what you have in mind.

Re: The user is visibly frustrated

#282

Post by streetfighter64 »

em-bee wrote: post #279
streetfighter64 wrote: post #271

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nobody works by choice so I suppose that makes us all "victims" of the system. I'd put using certain software below many worse kinds of suffering however

Nobody works by choice not true. anybody working as a volunteer works by choice. i work by choice, because i could instead live in germany on unemployment support and welfare, because i am to old to find a job (germany has a big problem with age discrimination) and the government can't force me to work as a selfemployed freelancer. so i choose to work because i want to. not because i have to. at least in germany i ca…

Wow. Well it's a very gracious choice of you to not mooch off the welfare system.

> at least in germany i can't think of anyone being forced to work in a job that would cause them suffering. well, except working with windows

You must be actually trolling. You'd honestly choose stocking shelves in a supermarket over being a windows sysadmin? Have you ever heard of RSI? Or actually ever worked a day of physical labor in your life?

Re: The user is visibly frustrated

#283

Post by em-bee »

streetfighter64 wrote: post #282
em-bee wrote: post #279

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nobody works by choice not true. anybody working as a volunteer works by choice. i work by choice, because i could instead live in germany on unemployment support and welfare, because i am to old to find a job (germany has a big problem with age discrimination) and the government can't force me to work as a selfemployed freelancer. so i choose to work because i want to. not because i have to. at least in germany i ca…

Wow. Well it's a very gracious choice of you to not mooch off the welfare system. > at least in germany i can't think of anyone being forced to work in a job that would cause them suffering. well, except working with windows You must be actually trolling. You'd honestly choose stocking shelves in a supermarket over being a windows sysadmin? Have you ever heard of RSI? Or actually ever worked a day of physical labor i…

we were talking about suffering and dignity. i see nothing undignified about stocking shelves. they don't make me angry, for one. but also suffering, the moment stocking shelves causes any sort of pain you are no longer able to do the job. noone is forced to suffer at work. at least not in germany.

physical labor? not to the point of suffering. the point is, in germany, jobs that make you suffer through physical labor do not exist, because they are illegal. grey areas exist of course, and cases that are not discovered because the victims (and in that case they are victims) don't speak up.

but this is completely besides the point because what i am talking about is what is more difficult to cover by law, and that is mental suffering.

your argument essentially appears to be that because physical suffering exists, we should ignore mental suffering, and anyone complaining about mental suffering should stop whining because others have it worse. 1st world problems or whatever.

so i should also tolerate my boss yelling at me, my coworkers bullying me, being verbally abused, how about discrimination, sexism, etc? surely any of that is more tolerable than the physical pain i'd get from stocking shelves.

just because something worse is possible that does not dismiss the stress and frustration i have to experience when working with windows, or with LLMs.

Re: The user is visibly frustrated

#285

Post by scotty79 »

recursive wrote: post #280
scotty79 wrote: post #247

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Depends how they are hitting the nail. If they do it furiously with anger in their eyes, yes. If they do it to fasten two things together, no. Emotionally motivated violence is something to be extremely cautious about, regardless of the target.

For the purposes of this conversation, I'm speaking of fastening two things together.

No cause for alarm then.

I wouldn't mind all that much if somebody said bad words to AI strategically in order to successfully make AI behave better, same way I don't mind all that much if someone is making or watching a movie with cartoonish violence.

It still wouldn't be great because why would we make AI that behaves well only when you say bad words to it? But I wouldn't mind all that much.

I do mind if those word are emotionally motivated.

Re: The user is visibly frustrated

#286

Post by scotty79 »

recursive wrote: post #268
scotty79 wrote: post #263

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You're making a lot of assertions about the nature of relationships and the definition of machines. I'll assume this is based on a philosophy that works for you Always. > But now you have set up a system of definitions where, for example, a good natured person, by definition, cannot be frustrated. > It kind of sounds like sophistry to me. It's just my lived experience. When I get frustrated I don't look for guilty…

There is overlap in the things that humans and machines can do. But to me, humans enjoy a special position regardless of what they can do or are doing. If I'm using a ball-point pen (a machine) that's leaking ink, I'm just going to throw it in the trash. If I'm using a hand-made slingshot made as a gift, and one of the straps breaks, I will endeavor to fix it. To me, the chief difference between a fast food worker an…

Special pleading is rarely a good strategy.

I value people for being people but it's completely orthogonal with anything else. I might at the same time value fast-food worker for being human with full kindheartedness I have for any stranger and find them completely useless for taking my order in comparison to the self-checkout kiosk. One doesn't influence the other and the other way around. I won't think worse of them as humans, because they don't fit my needs when it comes to taking order. And I won't think they are better at taking my order just because they are human.

> What you call the biggest value of ChatGPT is what I'd call its biggest threat.

I didn't mean LLM is a biggest value of ChatGPT system in terms of appreciation. I was just stating a fact that without LLM ChatGPT is just a lame chat app with some text filters that we pretty much had for the last 3 decades, so not very valuable. And that part of little value is the machine part of ChatGPT system. LLM itself is not a machine. It doesn't have machine flaws any more than a fast-food worker, or a dining experience or literal walk in a park could have machine flaws. LLMs are math. If you want to look for their flaws, you need to look for math flaws. You can be angry at them not in a way you are angry at machines (or people, or park walks, or dining experiences), only in a way you could be angry at math.

I can't really remember if I was ever angry at math.

Re: The user is visibly frustrated

#287

Post by tanvach »

sznio wrote: post #73
tanvach wrote: post #35

For me, LLMs tend to engage the 'language center' that drains me faster than the 'problem solving center' I usually reserve for writing code. We really need a different abstraction the bridges the gap between human and programming language, and load balance between these two parts of the brain more effectively.

I've been thinking recently of creating a programming language where you write mostly python, but can just "hand wave" away the boring stuff for the agent to do. If you don't want to deal with it, just type in a prompt or pseudocode and it will get filled in. Kinda like using the ai-assisted image editing software. the main difference being that you don't switch between an agent chat window and the code. Just leave a…

That’s really cool. I think you nailed it, English isn’t the best way to encode my intentions in code. A pseudo language is likely much more efficient.

Re: The user is visibly frustrated

#288

Post by scotty79 »

mycocola wrote: post #70
apsurd wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Semi-related, I'm always very put off by how people treat LLMs. Especially coders, seems an instinctive joy comes out to play God. The justification is usually that it's intentionally against the trap of anthropomorphizing, but no I can't help but suspect it's people getting off on power. It's weird. I am always very cordial in my sessions. It's just more pleasant and it's a habit I want to habituate. Great work! Now…

The similarity to human interaction is irrelevant. No one apologises to a potato being peeled, nor compliments it for doing a great job being mashed.

Neither apologies, nor complements affect the behavior of the potato. Words affect the behavior of and LLM.
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