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AMD pulls a bait-and-switch on Linux users with Vivado licensing changes

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Re: AMD pulls a bait-and-switch on Linux users with Vivado licensing changes

#91

Post by mlyle »

linuxftw wrote: post #73
techcode wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't see how that particular line of thinking applies when: 1) They continue to have a free version for Windows 2) They continue to have a version for Linux I just can't see that cost of having a free Linux version (on top having a paid Linux version) is big?

I literally explained the thinking that the free builds on Linux aren't worth it. If you've ever shipped production software, you'd know this. Just because there's a free build available for Windows doesn't mean it costs the company $0 to release the free build. It's a lot of extra time and QA for each variant of a release. There might be many differences between the Windows and Linux builds, such as the Linux builds…

> It's a lot of extra time and QA for each variant of a release.

In Vivado, it's the same release for the free and expensive builds on both Linux and Windows. It's just a question of the installed license file/license limits.

> such as the Linux builds require proprietary 3rd party code with royalties, and they chose not to eat that cost.

This seems unlikely for a multitude of reasons.

Re: AMD pulls a bait-and-switch on Linux users with Vivado licensing changes

#92

Post by sph »

amelius wrote: post #72
SecretDreams wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

AMD has long been the proof that hardware is easier than software. Apparently, hardware is also easier than marketing.

I wish more software engineers found out how easy hardware actually is.

Given how many idiotic ideas are ‘patched’ or worked around in software, it’s probably pretty easy. Especially in the world of modern GPUs when only a handful of people at the factory are able to write drivers for it.

Hardware vendors lost the plot in the Winmodem era.

Re: AMD pulls a bait-and-switch on Linux users with Vivado licensing changes

#94

Post by jorvi »

ajross wrote: post #78
sheepscreek wrote: post #74

> “Until now, it has been available for free on both Windows and Linux” If it’s any consolation, it wasn’t and still isn’t available on macOS. Also the part about Linux having a “small user base” made me chuckle. That’s the opposite of what I’m observing. If they wanted to save costs, they would have dropped Linux support altogether. But instead, they are making it a paid benefit. It can only mean that their Linux us…

> It can only mean that their Linux user base is growing, ie. more commercial operators are turning to Linux. Well, more correctly that they think the commercial base has grown, and that there's revenue on the table by forcing their standard-edition-using commercial Linux users into contracts. Maybe the thinking is that the Linux users are more sophisticated and able to self-support than windows shops, and so they're…

What is really interesting about Linux users is that they cost an enormous amount in support.

I think it was a dev of the reboot of Planetary Annihilation that said their Linux users / build made up a few percent of the sales but over 90 percent of all support tickets (!). Mind you that this was before Valve's Proton.

Edit: It was https://xcancel.com/bgolus/status/1080213166116597760

Re: AMD pulls a bait-and-switch on Linux users with Vivado licensing changes

#95

Post by anonymous_sorry »

nekusar wrote: post #85
JCTheDenthog wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not trying to dismiss what you're saying as a possibility (AMD's behavior in many regards over the last 15 years or so is baffling to the point that a family conspiracy feels surprisingly plausible) but Huang isn't Su's uncle. They are "first cousins once removed" meaning that Su is the child of one of Huang's cousins. Or put another way, one of Huang's grandparents is one of Su's great-grandparents.

Honestly, my mind could never wrap around genealogy and family relations well at all. I thought they were indirect cousin/uncle , or as you say, cousins once removed. Also my understanding of many Asian cultures is they tend to have a much more tight-knit large family structure. And doubling that is the fact they're 2 heads of world-level hardware tech companies. And, well, there's no such thing as coincidences. Havi…

Well, but there absolutely are such things as coincidences. It is obvious that coincidences are to be expected.

Combinatorial mathematics actually says certain types of coincidence happen more often than we seem to expect intuitively (eg. the Birthday "Paradox").

I have no particular view on AMD. But any argument that includes "I don't believe in coincidences" should probably be weakened in your estimation.

Re: AMD pulls a bait-and-switch on Linux users with Vivado licensing changes

#96

Post by tardedmeme »

sph wrote: post #92
amelius wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wish more software engineers found out how easy hardware actually is.

Given how many idiotic ideas are ‘patched’ or worked around in software, it’s probably pretty easy. Especially in the world of modern GPUs when only a handful of people at the factory are able to write drivers for it. Hardware vendors lost the plot in the Winmodem era.

Winmodems are a very sensible idea. You know software-defined radio? They are that, but for modems. Expandable to support any current or future protocol, at the cost of CPU time. Why do we like SDRs but hate SDMs? That's an irrational position.

The actual problem with winmodems was them breaking the established software/hardware boundary, and the Linux community not having the resources to follow suit.

Nothing stops someone from taking the free Windows Vivado and making it run on Linux, or taking a Winmodem driver and making it run on Linux, or writing a from-scratch software implementation of a 56k modem that can run on any sound card plugged into a phone line (which is what a Winmodem is), or reverse engineering the bitstream format for these FPGAs and writing a compiler from scratch (or even just the device-dependent backend - the frontend and middle-end can be developed in a more normal way and can be shared with other toolchains). But nobody actually stepped up and did it, which I think is proof that the free software community is a lot weaker than it thinks it is.

You could even do it right now, if you wanted to. You're not, and I'm sure there are good reasons for that. Extrapolate it across all developers, and it's unfortunate that it seems none of them have enough reason to do it. On the flip side, if anyone reading this does suddenly decide they have enough reason to do it... (Incentive: FPGAs are fun to play with!)

Re: AMD pulls a bait-and-switch on Linux users with Vivado licensing changes

#98

Post by MisterTea »

cogman10 wrote: post #47
adapteva wrote: post #40

Exactly why we zero asic is making Platypus devices open bitstream and all tooling foss from day one...to protect the world against future evil/dumb version of ourselves. https://www.zeroasic.com/platypus https://www.zeroasic.com/projects/wildebeest https://www.zeroasic.com/projects/logik Of course we don't have silicon yet...so nobody here cares. I think a lot of people forget that Xilinx spent $10B+ develop their a…

IDK where it's at now, but 15 years ago xilinx was some of the most garbage software I'd ever worked with. Super buggy, constantly corrupting itself, and this was for me just doing university level projects. God speed if you can get something a lot better for a lot cheaper.

Quartus was not much better on Linux. Honestly I was really into FPGA's around 2010-12 but gave up as I could not afford the full suites at the time and the software was fucking miserable to work with. They were prone to license amnesia and lord help you after running updates, something likely breaks. OR maybe one day it decides to not work anymore and crash continually. Then you spend hours gnashing your teeth, fighting the install, searching through forums and screaming into the void for help. It was mentally draining.

FPGA software gave me FPGA PTSD. I still to this day don't want to go near them - but I am dying to get back into using them. Help ...

Re: AMD pulls a bait-and-switch on Linux users with Vivado licensing changes

#99

Post by tardedmeme »

altairprime wrote: post #61
fsh wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Vivado is an IDE for programming AMD FPGAs. One cannot use it without buying AMD hardware.

Hardware isn’t where the margins are, and probably is somewhat of a loss leader for small-batch users; for hobby users I would hazard a guess that they’re running at around -10% profit on small sales to try and drive subscription revenue multipliers, and for already-paying users this change is essentially irrelevant and will have zero downside impact on sub revenue. Terrible way to run a profitable business if you fu…

These chips scale up into the price range of $100,000 per chip, I'm not kidding. You really want someone to pick your $100k chip instead of Intel's $100k chip. A single high-end deal offsets the entire tool sales over the entire lifetime of Vivado.

It might be excusable that they want to vet their customers receiving the tool chain for the high end chips to avoid leaking trade secrets to Intel, but that isn't excusable for the low end. Someone who starts with your $10 chips is likely to develop brand loyalty and if they need $100k chips later, they'll be more likely to pick your ones.

Re: AMD pulls a bait-and-switch on Linux users with Vivado licensing changes

#100

Post by TheScaryOne »

jorvi wrote: post #94
ajross wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It can only mean that their Linux user base is growing, ie. more commercial operators are turning to Linux. Well, more correctly that they think the commercial base has grown, and that there's revenue on the table by forcing their standard-edition-using commercial Linux users into contracts. Maybe the thinking is that the Linux users are more sophisticated and able to self-support than windows shops, and so they're…

What is really interesting about Linux users is that they cost an enormous amount in support. I think it was a dev of the reboot of Planetary Annihilation that said their Linux users / build made up a few percent of the sales but over 90 percent of all support tickets (!). Mind you that this was before Valve's Proton. Edit: It was https://xcancel.com/bgolus/status/1080213166116597760

Would you rather that the 100% of bugs in those 20% of tickets never got fixed?

Linux users write highly detailed bug reports because it's the only way to get things fixed without coding the fix yourself.

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