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What Apple and Google are doing to push notifications

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Re: What Apple and Google are doing to push notifications

#301

Post by supriyo-biswas »

iamacyborg wrote: post #286
nyx wrote: post #272

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not a fan of Apple or Google, and it feels bad that all of our notifications pass through APNS or FCM. Megacorps shouldn't have control over our digital lives to the extent that they do, and anyone talking about this gets my full attention and support. Except for marketers! I don't think there's a less sympathetic category of technologists, save for maybe CSAM peddlers. You're upset that you can't get "visibility…

If we had visibility, we would know what doesn't work and we would stop sending it. Almost like there are aligned interests there rather than a purely adversarial relationship.

Personally, all I've seen is marketers not getting the message and using it to perform A/B testing to come up with the basest ad they could possibly come up with to entrap more users.

Re: What Apple and Google are doing to push notifications

#302

Post by lanerobertlane »

drstewart wrote: post #252
lanerobertlane wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If I order an Uber, I already know it is coming. I was the person who ordered it. This is how taxis worked for decades before smartphones existed. You phoned for a taxi, then remained vaguely aware that it would arrive shortly. The question is whether a single “it has arrived” notification is worth the surrounding noise: “driver accepted”, “driver is nearby”, “rate your driver”, “here’s 10% off your next ride”, and s…

>If I order an Uber, I already know it is coming. I was the person who ordered it. Which makes me wonder why you have notifications for your bank and Whatsapp enabled. If I have an account, I know what transactions are coming out of it. I was the person who owned the account. If I have someone's number, I know if I want to see messages from them. I was the person who gave them my number. Seems really sill that you ha…

I have notifications enabled for my bank because it may alert me to transactions which were not made by me, and because it does not abuse that permission to send me marketing spam.

I have WhatsApp notifications enabled because it is the primary way people communicate where I live. If my elderly mother messages or calls me, it will most likely be through WhatsApp.

Both of those notifications contain genuinely important or time-sensitive information which may require action on my part.

That's the distinction between them. A person contacting me is fundamentally different from a brand attempting to engage me. Transaction alerts are fundamentally different from “your order is out for delivery”.

The criteria is not “did a thing happen”. It's whether the notification gives meaningful new information that is important or time-sensitive, and requires me to take action.

Most app notifications fail that test completely.

Re: What Apple and Google are doing to push notifications

#303

Post by iamacyborg »

supriyo-biswas wrote: post #301
iamacyborg wrote: post #286

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If we had visibility, we would know what doesn't work and we would stop sending it. Almost like there are aligned interests there rather than a purely adversarial relationship.

Personally, all I've seen is marketers not getting the message and using it to perform A/B testing to come up with the basest ad they could possibly come up with to entrap more users.

One could take an equally uncharitable approach to what engineers and product teams do.

Re: What Apple and Google are doing to push notifications

#304

Post by AnthonyMouse »

spwa4 wrote: post #290
account42 wrote: post #288

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is all a consequence from running software that doesn't respect you and notification are just one of many symptoms. I'd rather choose better software than let Google/Apple decide what software running on my device is allowed to do.

You mean it's a consequence of very large amounts of people refusing to pay for software, at essentially any other cost ... Of course you could describe almost all of the internet that way.

It's a consequence of having platforms instead of protocols.

Suppose you want delivery notifications for your packages. The seller, by contrast, wants to spam you with marketing.

If getting the notifications requires you to install their app, they're going to shovel any spam into it that they can, and then they're writing the code that runs on your device. Whereas if the software on your device is controlled by you and the notifications are received using a standard protocol, you (or someone like uBlock) can create filters to only show the notifications you actually want and discard the spam.

But for that to actually work you need the software running on the client to be under the control of the user independent of which device or service they're using, and subject to competitive pressure. Otherwise the platform uses is as a means for lock-in and then filters your notifications in the ways that benefit them rather than you, or just does a lazy job because they know you've been deprived of having a lot of other alternatives.

Re: What Apple and Google are doing to push notifications

#305

Post by gus_massa »

lanerobertlane wrote: post #24

If my phone interrupts me, it should either mean someone genuinely needs my attention right now or it should not be disrupting me at all. That's my notification set up. Apps allowed to receive push notifications Phone, Messages, Whatsapp, Apple Health, [brand] bank. That concludes the list. There is no reason any other app needs to be able to instantly ping me. Most apps are not notifying you because something matter…

My bank likes to show offers, like a 10% discount in tires, but I have no car. Perhaps tree or four irrelevant messages per day.

I have MouseTimer that is an alarm that is nice to show to kids when they must wait or do something for 10 or 20 minutes. It should be able to ring and sometimes show notifications.

Re: What Apple and Google are doing to push notifications

#306

Post by MiddleEndian »

nixosbestos wrote: post #41
liotier wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The user legitimately considers the application as hostile - hence sandboxing... Notification spam filtering is now the obvious need at the sandbox's edge, with the whole customizable arsenal we have come to expect for our inbound mail. Of course, Google will not cooperate with anything likely to reduce sacro-sanct engagement !

Except that they did. Android has notification channels. Now, I suppose we could argue that Google could be more ham-fisted about forcing apps to use them, but that's murky. In fact, Uber on Android does use these notification channels. I just have "All Promotions & Recommendation notifications" disabled, and then "Taking a ride" channel enabled.

>Now, I suppose we could argue that Google could be more ham-fisted about forcing apps to use them, but that's murky.

I disagree. What the is the point of forcing everyone to use the Google Play Store (or whatever app store on iOS) if the store doesn't stop spammers?

People complain about Uber, but Lyft does the same shit. I got a promotional notification from Lyft and could not disable it without disabling the main notifications that tell me when drivers were arriving.

If app stores were useful instead of just rent-seeking, they would kick Lyft off until they stopped doing that.

Re: What Apple and Google are doing to push notifications

#307

Post by MiddleEndian »

losvedir wrote: post #64
pants2 wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The biggest problem are apps that do both. For example, I want Uber to notify me when my driver has arrived, but I don't want it to notify me when they have a special 10% discount on my next 5 rides. It's not straightforward to block one but not the other.

Tell me use iOS without telling me you do. Android has separate notification channel toggles, so I've turned off the marketing ones. I was shocked and aghast when I spent a year trying to use an iPhone that it didn't do this. Part of the reason I went back to my trusty Pixels.

I use Android. Lyft put marketing notifications in the default notification channel on my device. If the Play Store were useful, they'd have banned Lyft until they fixed it. (haven't gotten one in a bit so maybe they did (or maybe I set something so that the app could only message me while it's active))

Re: What Apple and Google are doing to push notifications

#308

Post by xocnad »

hunter2_ wrote: post #182
_carbyau_ wrote: post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Why would I want that? Because to get that far they entered your password? Which you might like to change? You did mention: "You are a two factor app." If they've got past your first factor, you might want to know.

I recently got an unsolicited OTP email from Microsoft, which led me to fear that someone had entered my password, but no: I eventually was able to confirm that the arrival of an OTP does not, in fact, require that someone enter anything beyond my email address. This is rather insane (I should not be having a blood pressure event due to Microsoft) but on the other hand I do understand the passwordless concept which i…

This also happened to me about a week ago and I had the same reaction/discovery process you did. OT but I wonder if there was a recent ramp up in these attacks. It was done against an email I do not regularly use that was attached to my account as an alternate and haveibeenpwned confirmed was in a data breach back in 2020.

Re: What Apple and Google are doing to push notifications

#309

Post by Perseids »

iamacyborg wrote: post #303
supriyo-biswas wrote: post #301

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Personally, all I've seen is marketers not getting the message and using it to perform A/B testing to come up with the basest ad they could possibly come up with to entrap more users.

One could take an equally uncharitable approach to what engineers and product teams do.

Yes and that would be completely correct in many cases.

> Almost like there are aligned interests there rather than a purely adversarial relationship.

You might very well be the exception, but for something like 99% of marketing content that reaches me, our interests aren't aligned. First of all, they want to generate "needs" where there weren't any before and probably shouldn't be. A pizza ad produces the wish for unhealthy food. A fashion ad produces the wish for new clothes (even though I have enough) and probably even changes the societal dynamics of individual expression and personal style to be consumption oriented.

Second, even if I have a legitimate need for a solution, they still want me to buy their product, consume their media, give my attention to them. I, on the other hand, want to be informed by a neutral third party about the pros and cons of some product. Sure you can say "but unhappy customers are bad for us", but there are actually very few niches, where this signal is powerful enough to align incentives, because information and power asymmetry limit the customers understanding of product quality and their leverage to correct harmful market dynamics.

Re: What Apple and Google are doing to push notifications

#310

Post by bossyTeacher »

1718627440 wrote: post #281
bossyTeacher wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The point of notifications is the convenience of not having to constantly check your phone for every single app you have (amazon delivery? just eats delivery? uber booking? claude finished its task?).

Your house already has a built-in notification system, which can be activated by the delivery guy, once he is physically at your location.

A built-in notification system that everyone from your local politician asking for your vote to your Jehovah Witness recruiter can and does abuse. Way to waste your time.
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