Live data from Hacker News

I think Anthropic and OpenAI have found product-market fit

simonwillison.net

781–790 of 1001 posts

Re: I think Anthropic and OpenAI have found product-market fit

#781

They've got, ballpark, $5t to $10t to make back in the next 5 years, or the hardware buildouts will start getting written down. This means we're going to need $1t+ per year in spending, per year, on tokens. 200m knowledge workers in the world, 30m developers. We're talking about a world where you need 5% of every knowledge workers salary to go into tokens. 20% if you're a developer. That's a _huge_ shift. Most people…

I work for a tiny little company ($150MM annual rev with 9% net) and we are already looking at dropping $100k on hardware to run local models because, for us, they're "good enough." Our estimated spend for AIaaS would exceed that cost in less than a year. In a few years, there will be hardware capable of running frontier models good enough for most things at accessible prices for even tiny companies.

Yes 100% this. A lot of people keep talking about how OpenAI and Anthropic will need to raise their prices. What is less discussed is how they CAN'T raise their prices because competition exists, and sure it's not SOTA, but it's literally an order of magnitude cheaper in many cases and the drive to figure out how to make it work well enough is going on right now (and will only intensify when the SOTA models raise their price).

It's a given that the SOTA models need to raise their prices. It's also a given that they can't. The more they raise the more customers will move to their competition.

So what happens next? Well I think it will suck horribly if you can't move off of SOTA sooner or later, because the Big Two are going to lose customers, and therefore have to raise prices on the locked in customers even more than these projections suggest.

Beyond that if you're looking to start a business, figure out how to use cheap models in new scenarios. Build software which does that and license it. This is kind of contrary to the idea that you shouldn't over optimize for deficiencies in the models that will likely go away in the next generation - for instance a lot of problems were solved when context windows got way bigger. So it's a thin line to walk but I think it's there because a lot of orgs are using Claude today for pretty basic tasks.

The dev who's addicted to SOTA models honestly is going to have to settle for less or get totally screwed. Most applications within business from what I see aside from complex research do not require SOTA. They summarize, they classify, they transform, and doing that accurately has been cheap for a while.

Re: I think Anthropic and OpenAI have found product-market fit

#782
post #771

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your severely underestimating the idea that people are just not going to use developers for certain things in the future For example I don’t anticipate somebody making a living off of making website ever again Somebody with absolutely no technical experience who needs a website for their business can now make one with almost no money whatsoever. That’s good enough for their business. and the code can be totally shit…

Why would a small business use a coding agent to build a custom website when they could use something like Squarespace or Shopify with prebuilt templates that mean they have to know even less than if they were to use some kind of chat UI?

Cause it’s still easier and cheaper apparently

This is the most recent example I found last week for a local barber:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48166050

They seem to be using Manus: https://manus.im/

And my other assumption is that it immediately integrates with IG/Facebook which is where they do a lot of their marketing

I see no reason that trend is going to slow, especially if you can go to meta to manage your entire business marketing.

Regular people running business just want fast cheaps and good enough.

Re: I think Anthropic and OpenAI have found product-market fit

#783
> I currently subscribe to the $100/month Max plan from Anthropic and the $100/month Pro plan from OpenAI. If you are a heavy user of coding agents these plans are a fantastic deal.

Guys, what - in your opinion - does "heavy user" mean? I thought I am heavy user (I am using AI to code every day 8hr a day + side projects) but 20 USD/month Cursor plan is always enough. What should I be doing to extend my license to higher level?

Re: I think Anthropic and OpenAI have found product-market fit

#785

They've got, ballpark, $5t to $10t to make back in the next 5 years, or the hardware buildouts will start getting written down. This means we're going to need $1t+ per year in spending, per year, on tokens. 200m knowledge workers in the world, 30m developers. We're talking about a world where you need 5% of every knowledge workers salary to go into tokens. 20% if you're a developer. That's a _huge_ shift. Most people…

> 5% of every knowledge workers salary to go into tokens. 20% if you're a developer.

When you break it down like that it seems reasonable. I'm spending about $5k/mo on tokens, seems more and more normal.

Re: I think Anthropic and OpenAI have found product-market fit

#786

> I currently subscribe to the $100/month Max plan from Anthropic and the $100/month Pro plan from OpenAI. If you are a heavy user of coding agents these plans are a fantastic deal. Guys, what - in your opinion - does "heavy user" mean? I thought I am heavy user (I am using AI to code every day 8hr a day + side projects) but 20 USD/month Cursor plan is always enough. What should I be doing to extend my license to hig…

I'm out of credits codex pro credits (200 plan) in 4-5 days, and then I switch to claude (another large plan) mostly or just go out more and get Vitamin D. :)

I spend most of my time designing and tweaking tests suites, and improving test performance. These commits are almost entirely Codex: https://github.com/tsoniclang/tsonic/commits/main/ - but it's possible only because there's a very large test suite attached to it.

All of that is very token intensive. If OpenAI gave me 3x my limits, I'd find ways to eat it up in a week.

What do these tokens give me? Well, I think in a week or two, I hope to port the TypeScript-Go compiler back into TypeScript, but compiled to native code. It's probably not particularly useful for most ppl, but it's a hobby project that I've spent the last 7 months on.

Re: I think Anthropic and OpenAI have found product-market fit

#787

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why on earth would AI labs be bragging about how little the product they sell actually costs them to make? You don't want to do anything that reduces it's perceived value to the user, that might make them less willing to pay for it. Also, inference costs are bound to go way down with more optimized architectures. GPUs are fundamentally not great at inference. No platform where the weights are streamed from a large po…

A couple of years ago Altman was saying the price of AI compute is going to drop 90% year over year or something like that, so I don't think they're nervous about talking about lowering their costs. They probably just haven't been able to lower their costs. You have to keep in mind that about 99% of their announcements are targeted towards investors (their most important revenue source..), so they're not going to be…

Jevons paradox. Cheaper tokens does not mean we will spend less.

Re: I think Anthropic and OpenAI have found product-market fit

#788

They've got, ballpark, $5t to $10t to make back in the next 5 years, or the hardware buildouts will start getting written down. This means we're going to need $1t+ per year in spending, per year, on tokens. 200m knowledge workers in the world, 30m developers. We're talking about a world where you need 5% of every knowledge workers salary to go into tokens. 20% if you're a developer. That's a _huge_ shift. Most people…

Not to mention the competition: chinese open-weight models and open-source harnesses. Qwen3.6-(27B and 35B) have proven to be worthy and capable of running locally. I am confident more SMEs would look into this as a solution given the ballooning costs of API usage. You get a decent setup with an RTX 6000 Pro.

Re: I think Anthropic and OpenAI have found product-market fit

#789

> I currently subscribe to the $100/month Max plan from Anthropic and the $100/month Pro plan from OpenAI. If you are a heavy user of coding agents these plans are a fantastic deal. Guys, what - in your opinion - does "heavy user" mean? I thought I am heavy user (I am using AI to code every day 8hr a day + side projects) but 20 USD/month Cursor plan is always enough. What should I be doing to extend my license to hig…

How many sessions are you running simultaneously, how careful are you being about token consumption and context window management, and what level of reasoning are you using (with which models?)

8hrs a day doesn’t really mean anything without a lot additional qualifiers.

fwiw lately I’ve been straddling 2 or 3 claude codes and one Claude cowork, primarily on 4.7 with high effort - the company’s paying for it, so I’m doing my best to burn as many tokens as I have the mental capacity to manage. At that rate, the 100 account is completely necessary, I was blowing through my 4-hour limits consistently before requisitioning an upgrade.

Re: I think Anthropic and OpenAI have found product-market fit

#790

They've got, ballpark, $5t to $10t to make back in the next 5 years, or the hardware buildouts will start getting written down. This means we're going to need $1t+ per year in spending, per year, on tokens. 200m knowledge workers in the world, 30m developers. We're talking about a world where you need 5% of every knowledge workers salary to go into tokens. 20% if you're a developer. That's a _huge_ shift. Most people…

I just don’t understand how people are getting negative value out of AI or even only 20% productivity boost. I can only conclude that people don’t know how to use agents.

I mean, it doesn’t really matter if it caused by people failing to use the agents well or not. You cannot assume everybody to use the technology the best way possible
Post reply on HN