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Can we have the day off?

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Re: Can we have the day off?

#401

Post by jimbokun »

bryanlarsen wrote: post #251
Ancalagon wrote: post #206

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is society better off? Honest question, you used to be able to support a family of four with a single 9-5.

And that support was a family of 4-6 in a 1200 sq ft house, eating out <6x a year, vacations were picnics at the local beach, one car that you did your own maintenance on, one tv, only one set of good clothes (your Sunday outfit), et cetera. Most places in the US can still support a family at that same level of expenditure on an average income.

The difference is the social structures supporting that kind of life have disappeared.

Re: Can we have the day off?

#402

Post by madrox »

quadrifoliate wrote: post #336
madrox wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Interestingly, software engineers are usually considered exempt in the US, meaning they can be required to work more than 40 hours a week without overtime pay if employers choose to. Unless you're imagining congress do something. I want to shoot fireballs from my fingers, but unfortunately we don't live in a world of magic.

Influencing Congress is wildly easier than shooting fireballs from your fingers. This is supposed to be a site with optimistic people that do things. Imagine what you could do politically with the help of LLMs.

If you think it's so doable, I welcome you to do it. I will be happy to say I am wrong if you pull it off. However, if congress has not even banned a seven day work week I don't see how they will reduce it to four because, of all job segments, tech workers want it.

Meanwhile I did some googling and I can buy a wrist-mounted flamethrower for $175, which is close enough to my fingers to make no difference.

Re: Can we have the day off?

#403

Post by jlebar »

komali2 wrote: post #342
jlebar wrote: post #327

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There’s no reason, even under capitalism that we must allow all of the productivity gains to accrue to the benefit of solely those at the top of an enormous pile of wealth. I would question the premise that all or even most of the productivity gains of any past technological improvement have accrued to the benefit of solely those at the top of an enormous pile of wealth. 200 years ago 90% of Americans lived on farm…

> The economic surplus from that increase in productivity accrued to everyone in society, not just the wealthy. Sure, a poor man with two dollars is richer than a poor man with one dollar. And yet the man handing out the dollars had 100$ in surplus when he was handing out 1s and now that he's handing out 2's he's got 1,000,000,000. Look at the wealth disparity. Even if quality of life has increased, it's not wrong fo…

> Expand beyond the USA and include in your analysis how life has changed in imperialized nations that now function as cheap labor sources for our factories that pollute the local environment while exploiting workers for absurdly low wages and bad working conditions.

Agreed, let's do that! Here is the economic history of the developing world over the past 70 years.

https://ourworldindata.org/history-of-poverty-has-just-begun

Pick any metric you care about: number of people living on less than $1/day, literacy, maternal mortality, access to birth control. It has dramatically improved in the developing world over the past 70 years or so.

Re: Can we have the day off?

#404

Post by engineer_22 »

paulddraper wrote: post #82
alexpotato wrote: post #43

My dad was a stock broker in the late 1970s and remembers when most of trading was 100% manual and firms actually had "runners" who would take stock certificates back and forth between trading firms. He has this great quote about when computers came out: "We were told 'computers will save you so much time on work tasks that you won't even know what to do with your free time'. I spent the next 30 years working the sam…

Because human nature it to want more, more than wanting idleness.

Weird to be downvoted for obviously correct analysis...

Re: Can we have the day off?

#405

Post by jimbokun »

bwhiting2356 wrote: post #225
Ancalagon wrote: post #206

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is society better off? Honest question, you used to be able to support a family of four with a single 9-5.

More household work was done in this era, before grocery stores sold prepared food, before washing machines. And more people lived in less square footage, with grandparents living in the home, less privacy and autonomy. I don't know if we've made the right trade, but it's not the case that a single worker's income was paying for the kind of lifestyle a family of four now has.

So: tight knit families, fresh home cooked meals. Sounds like improvements.

Agree that no washing machines outright sucks.

Re: Can we have the day off?

#406

Post by jimbokun »

esikich wrote: post #250
bwhiting2356 wrote: post #225

Earlier quoted context omitted.

More household work was done in this era, before grocery stores sold prepared food, before washing machines. And more people lived in less square footage, with grandparents living in the home, less privacy and autonomy. I don't know if we've made the right trade, but it's not the case that a single worker's income was paying for the kind of lifestyle a family of four now has.

How is this relevant? The houses built in the 60s aren't affordable either. Look at median income and median home prices. You're telling on yourself. Average families aren't buying prepared food and they have a washing machine from the 90s they bought on craigslist. There's a 90% chance if you are on this site, you are not average. You are a part of the haves and you need to consider that you are living a very differ…

Average families are very much buying prepared food but it’s making us obese.

Re: Can we have the day off?

#407

Post by NiceWayToDoIT »

I am kind of late to comment, but let me try anyway.

Can we have a day off? Yes and no, or yes, but at your expense.

The problem is system design. If a company earned money for its contributors/workers, then each gain would be shared across the company, from the board to its employees. But a company earns money for its shareholders, and you, as an employee, are in the expense column.

Therefore, a day off is either a mandatory legal right meant to help you rest so you can be more productive, or it is just additional unproductive time that does not create more value or maximize profit.

Therefore, this is where the argument for a 4-day working week collapses. To get a 4-day working week would mean yes, but with less "expense", or a lower salary.

For the same reason, taxing the rich would not help "the people" much, as it goes to the wrong pocket.

Is there are fix, yes.

Re: Can we have the day off?

#408

Post by rapidaneurism »

iteria wrote: post #338
quadrifoliate wrote: post #316

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't understand why people make these hyperbolic jokes about guillotines. Violence is counterproductive; and not practical anyway. Joking about it just makes you feel great without actually doing anything. There is a simple alternative. Vote; and educate your family and friends. If you don't know what is on the ballot in the midterms, you are part of the problem. If you aren't starting a family conversation about…

Everyone talks about MLK, but no one points out that people were willing to listen because Malcom X was a looming threat if MLK failed. Yes vote, but the threat of violence is what makes voting a delighted option. That's why protests exist. They are reminders that peace is a choice. Violent revolution has merit when peaceful means break down. The rise of the guillotine jokes are the first time that people are losing…

France had revolution and guillotines, but the UK had a strong police force and good suppression.

Re: Can we have the day off?

#409

Post by engineer_22 »

madrox wrote: post #65

The four day work week is a prisoner's dilemma. If everyone did it, then we'd all get a payoff, but if someone defects to a longer work week they tend to get ahead at work. Thus we all do it and thus we all lose. It's funny how underappreciated it is how the five day work week is powered by norms...at least in the US. People assume there are laws about it. The only laws dictate compensation past certain thresholds, a…

A lot of people work less than full time....

Like...

You can actually work 4 x 8 if you want to. Or 5x5... No gun to your head

Yeah, agreed, you'll have a hard time finding a job with full benis and vacation yada yada, but like,.... Every CEO loves to negotiate

So stop being a bitch

If 4x8 is important to you:

Negotiate

***************

Reply to madrox:

"Demands" is a loaded term. In negotiations you enter with "must haves" and "like to haves"...

Through the course of negotiations you learn new information and reveal your own information....

At the end, whether you take the job or not: you end up with what you deserve. Not what you want.

By my assessment, a lot of people are learning that "deserve" is not a character trait, it's market driven.

Re: Can we have the day off?

#410

Post by jimbokun »

zeroonetwothree wrote: post #322
shimman wrote: post #211

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is this a joke? Income inequality is at it's highest (even worse than the gilded age), deaths of despair are at their highest as well, people can't afford childcare (a years worth of childcare costs more than college), people are losing access to health insurance en masse; but we're suppose to think society is truly better off? What brand of edibles do you have there 'bud? I'd like to fly into that realm of alternate…

When I was a kid “child care” was either your grandparents or the neighborhood kid watching 6 screaming toddlers at once. I’m pretty sure that doesn’t cost more than college today :). Our standards have just risen massively.

Many parents would probably love to have grandparents close enough and willing to watch the kids while they work.
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