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Mini Micro Fantasy Computer

miniscript.org

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Re: Mini Micro Fantasy Computer

#41

Post by christophilus »

Wowfunhappy wrote: post #37
alex_x wrote: post #2

I wonder why all these easy-to-learn languages use indentation to denote scope, not something like curly braces. Isn't it actually harder to explain?

Fifth grade teacher here. Significant whitespace is a major reason I prefer Python for teaching programming. 1. I want kids to indent their code anyway; they may not realize it (or won't admit it), but this makes the code much easier for them to read. Kids will not do this unless they have to. 2. Unbalanced brackets are a major source of mistakes and confusion for my students. Relying purely on indentation resolves t…

This is the job of a tool like go fmt. Obviously, it’s good discipline to indent, but I wouldn’t choose this as the deciding factor for picking a first programming language.

Re: Mini Micro Fantasy Computer

#43

Post by Wowfunhappy »

christophilus wrote: post #41
Wowfunhappy wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fifth grade teacher here. Significant whitespace is a major reason I prefer Python for teaching programming. 1. I want kids to indent their code anyway; they may not realize it (or won't admit it), but this makes the code much easier for them to read. Kids will not do this unless they have to. 2. Unbalanced brackets are a major source of mistakes and confusion for my students. Relying purely on indentation resolves t…

This is the job of a tool like go fmt. Obviously, it’s good discipline to indent, but I wouldn’t choose this as the deciding factor for picking a first programming language.

go fmt can fix #1, but not #2, and won't work if #2 is causing problems.

Re: Mini Micro Fantasy Computer

#44

Post by Gormo »

Wowfunhappy wrote: post #38
Gormo wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's an important form/function distinction here, though. Indentation is useful for human readability, but braces function to give unambiguous direction to the compiler or interpreter. I think conflating these two different purposes together is a mistake: you shouldn't risk altering or breaking the logic flow of a program simply by adjusting its visual formatting. The fact that we use whitespace for layout is prec…

I think this is probably correct for an experienced programmer but incorrect for someone who is new.

I'm not sure I understand what you mean. How would the friction inherent in conflating layout and semantics together depend on the experience level the programmer? Different programmers might have different ways of dealing with that friction, but I'd think its existence would be a property of the language itself.

Re: Mini Micro Fantasy Computer

#45

Post by Lerc »

K0balt wrote: post #27

I’d love to see something like this but designed to run on esp32 or raspberry pi 2530. Either can handle basic HDMI and USB. Or a little Easy to think raspberry pi, but with a full Linux you won’t get that intrinsic understanding that you fully control the hardware, you never control the “bare metal” unless you are a much more advanced user. IMHO the feeling of not being in full control of your computing device is no…

I have been thinking along those lines myself.

I have been playing around with a per scanline generated display on a rp2350 outputting to a tiny LCD. I think there's potential for some pretty fancy stuff on HDMI. A 2350 with PSRAM, HDMI connector plus a MicroSD for bulk filesytem, and USB for input could be quite a fun micro PC.

I would be tempted to make somthing that had a second RP2350 with its own PSRAM sitting unutilized just as a temptation to users to figure out how to get more out of the gadget and learn about different multiprocessing architectures.

One of these https://www.waveshare.com/core2350b.htm

With one of these https://www.waveshare.com/rp2350-matrix.htm

Mounted on top, and an HDMI connector squeezed in somewhere,

I am a bit reminded of what GeoWorks Ensemble managed on a 640k 8086. Theoretically you could make a tiny system like this do even more.

Re: Mini Micro Fantasy Computer

#46

Post by Wowfunhappy »

Gormo wrote: post #44
Wowfunhappy wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think this is probably correct for an experienced programmer but incorrect for someone who is new.

I'm not sure I understand what you mean. How would the friction inherent in conflating layout and semantics together depend on the experience level the programmer? Different programmers might have different ways of dealing with that friction, but I'd think its existence would be a property of the language itself.

The form/function distinction you're making requires the ability to hold two parallel representations of the same code in your head—the visual representation (what it looks like) and the syntactic representation (what it means to the parser), and to know that they're related but different. This is a higher level skill.

When you're starting out, the best form to express to other humans is probably the one you're expressing to the computer. This isn't literally true—I don't think beginners should write in assembly—but it's true enough that they probably shouldn't mess with indentation beyond what would naively follow from bracket placement.

Re: Mini Micro Fantasy Computer

#47

Post by Someone »

https://miniscript.org/files/MiniScript-QuickRef.pdf:

“A class or object is a map with a special __isa entry that points to the parent. This is set automatically when you use the new operator.

  Shape = {"sides":0}
  Square = new Shape
  Square.sides = 4
  x = new Square
  x.sides  // 4
”

So

- Shape is a map (it is created using the syntax defined earlier, using a literal string as key)

- Square is a class?

- x is an object?

Or is this language prototype based? If so, why mention the word “class”? If not, isn’t it confusing to use “new someMap” to create a class and “new someClass” to create an object?

I also find it curious to see that division is defined on lists and strings. What would that mean?

Edit: reading https://miniscript.org/files/Strout_iSTEM-Ed2021.pdf, it is prototype based. That’s interesting for a teaching language.

Re: Mini Micro Fantasy Computer

#48

Post by Lerc »

prmoustache wrote: post #32
K0balt wrote: post #27

I’d love to see something like this but designed to run on esp32 or raspberry pi 2530. Either can handle basic HDMI and USB. Or a little Easy to think raspberry pi, but with a full Linux you won’t get that intrinsic understanding that you fully control the hardware, you never control the “bare metal” unless you are a much more advanced user. IMHO the feeling of not being in full control of your computing device is no…

why not just use a vintage computer or game console then?

The main thing is video output. Even VGA is fading away now. HDMI is kind of what you need to be relevant to a lot of potenial users.

Re: Mini Micro Fantasy Computer

#49

Post by eddieroger »

christophilus wrote: post #41
Wowfunhappy wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fifth grade teacher here. Significant whitespace is a major reason I prefer Python for teaching programming. 1. I want kids to indent their code anyway; they may not realize it (or won't admit it), but this makes the code much easier for them to read. Kids will not do this unless they have to. 2. Unbalanced brackets are a major source of mistakes and confusion for my students. Relying purely on indentation resolves t…

This is the job of a tool like go fmt. Obviously, it’s good discipline to indent, but I wouldn’t choose this as the deciding factor for picking a first programming language.

Formatters and linters fix the mistakes made by people who know what they're doing. They do nothing to teach someone how to do something for the first time in a way that supports comprehension, only regurgitation.

Re: Mini Micro Fantasy Computer

#50

Post by talkingtab »

Wowfunhappy wrote: post #37
alex_x wrote: post #2

I wonder why all these easy-to-learn languages use indentation to denote scope, not something like curly braces. Isn't it actually harder to explain?

Fifth grade teacher here. Significant whitespace is a major reason I prefer Python for teaching programming. 1. I want kids to indent their code anyway; they may not realize it (or won't admit it), but this makes the code much easier for them to read. Kids will not do this unless they have to. 2. Unbalanced brackets are a major source of mistakes and confusion for my students. Relying purely on indentation resolves t…

Interesting point. I wonder if "easier for them to read" is too simple. I took "read" as in "read words" or "read a book". But "reading" a program is not I think the same as reading words. Reading words could be this:

for i = 0 i But with a more pictorial presentation, it is easier to read the program.

for i = 0 i I'm just wondering - if we had a more pictograph based programming language would it be easier to understand?

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